[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
christopher nusbaum
dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
Sat Mar 23 16:37:24 UTC 2013
Ray,
Oh good… There are more than two of us blind conservatives! Grin!
Chris Nusbaum
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:28 PM, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
> As am I also. Well, that's two things everybody now knows about me. Shall I add a third? Why not. conservative. Okay, here's a fifth. I'm really in to Volks Wagens as well. I just can't get enough of those little bugs. I'm in to electric fans as well. I reckon that will do for now.
>
>
> Sent from my mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind built-in!
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>
> On Mar 23, 2013, at 10:00 AM, "Gloria Whipple" <glowhi at centurylink.net> wrote:
>
>> The only thing I can say is, I am proud of my Catholic faith!
>>
>> Gloria Whipple
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>> Freeman
>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 20:49
>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
>> Not?
>>
>> But Desiree ...
>>
>> Sighted people *are* defined by the organizations they belong to. I dare say
>> there are few Roman Catholics who proudly trumpet their faith while at the
>> same time proudly exhibiting their membership cards to NARAL. (huge grin)
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
>> Oudinot
>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 4:42 PM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
>> Not?
>>
>> That's sound advice. If sighted people aren't defined by the
>> organizations or groups they belong to, why should we be? i'm not
>> saying that anyone said or even implied that in this discussion, but I
>> always get a distinct feeling from those who are deeply involved in
>> either the NFB or ACB that they feel your thoughts and opinions don't
>> matter if you're not also involved.
>>
>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I have definitely met other blind people who were not in the NFB who I
>> have
>>> learned a lot from. You just have to take everyone's philosophy use the
>>> parts that work foryou.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
>>> Oudinot
>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:27 PM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
>>> Not?
>>>
>>> I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support
>>> from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's
>>> den, though.
>>>
>>> On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or
>>>> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
>>>> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* of
>>>> understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's particular
>>>> methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to commend
>>>> it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also detect a
>>>> kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is
>>>> unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded community, but I
>>>> sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of superiority over
>>>> sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out
>>>> of the loop and out of place at some NFB events because I wasn't
>>>> "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of
>>>> personal history that most other federationists seem to have. I cannot
>>>> use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining the NFB, nor
>>>> do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am
>>>> uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience. This,
>>>> then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains
>>>> more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
>>>>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on the
>>>>> battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
>>>>>> carlson
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> Not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
>>>>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
>>>>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now, I
>>>>>> want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind person
>>>>>> and do what I can individually to help others as well. There is great
>>>>>> value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where that
>>>>>> isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to attend the
>>>>>> convention one of these years, though, and my mind could definitely
>>>>>> change!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation
>>>>>> at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I say
>>>>>> it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the Federation
>>>>>> and a great deal that I like and agree with. Fundamentally, my
>>>>>> philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB philosophy. How it is
>>>>>> worked out practically is sometimes where the rubber meets the road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why I
>>>>>>> choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider myself
>>>>>>> to be better than anyone who is part of an organization. however, I
>>>>>>> like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden agendas
>>>>>>> at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far as
>>>>>>> listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
>>>>>>> individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention realistic
>>>>>>> view, of how the members of each organization live, work and interact
>>>>>>> in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention, there's the
>>>>>>> expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say the
>>>>>>> right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not
>>>>>>> limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of
>>>>>>> human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded individuals
>>>>>>> together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
>>>>>>> proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their best
>>>>>>> or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time for
>>>>>>> individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take root
>>>>>>> and stand above the rest.
>>>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as a
>>>>>>> loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions best
>>>>>>> when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to speak. I
>>>>>>> take what is important to me, what fits in with my values and beliefs,
>>>>>>> and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly feel that I need
>>>>>>> to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor should I be told that I
>>>>>>> have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low
>>>>>>> point in the organization's history. I am content with this, and I
>>>>>>> feel that I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint
>>>>>>> which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable expressing
>>>>>>> for fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked at
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will not join the
>>>>>>>> American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of the
>>>>>>>> Blind.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being what
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but my own life
>>>>>>>> experience indicates that having influence means joining with others
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> mind, exploring how you can understand them and get them to
>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>> you,
>>>>>>>> and then acting together in a concerted way to bring about the better
>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>> we all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> listen to five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want. For
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> is the National Federation of the Blind. For others it is the
>>>>>>>> American
>>>>>>>> Council of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
>>>>>>>> commitment
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> blind people that extends beyond words. We are willing to put our
>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you appreciate
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance remains for
>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> Not?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>>>>> improvization
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get any information
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's Club's or wherever as long
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> get whatever information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> all I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts. I
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
>>>>>>>> individuals
>>>>>>>> that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest
>>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with a
>>>>>>>> rotten
>>>>>>>> situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going to be part
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> NFB,
>>>>>>>> ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer. I
>>>>>>>>> can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
>>>>>>>>> centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>>>>>>>>> generally managed my life successfully. However, in the work I have
>>>>>>>>> done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I missed
>>>>>>>>> when I was trained. I think I have picked up much of what I missed
>>>>>>>>> primarily because of my association with others in the Federation.
>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations and
>>>>>>>>> knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly how
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> the start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane left
>>>>>>>>> and right. In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it has
>>>>>>>>> less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel skills and
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> to do with whether one actually gets out and travels. These are not
>>>>>>>>> easy things to measure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past,
>>>>>>>>> but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I do know
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that surround
>>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>>> in a way that is hard to measure. Even though we have some idea of
>>>>>>>>> what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally confident, we
>>>>>>>>> are going to tend to believe it if we are uncertain how we would
>>>>>>>>> accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I
>>>>>>>>> believe there was a time when there was a clear dividing line
>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>> NFB training centers and many other centers. We believed that we
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching
>>>>>>>>> techniques.
>>>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>>>>> toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of their
>>>>>>>>> mandate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that there
>>>>>>>>> is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in
>>>>>>>>> oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> lines are not as clear as they once were. Still, I am skeptical of
>>>>>>>>> how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
>>>>>>>>> course, it depends some upon the starting point of the individual.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all
>>>>>>>>> good travelers. The person making the observation, who shall remain
>>>>>>>>> nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there
>>>>>>>>> were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people were
>>>>>>>>> getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that what
>>>>>>>>> appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not the
>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>> for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the role of good
>>>>>>>>> travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to
>>>>>>>>> travel
>>>>>>>>> than techniques. Having said all this, though, I also believe that
>>>>>>>>> what we have come to call structured discovery is a valid difference
>>>>>>>>> in how one learns to travel. In some ways, it takes longer to learn
>>>>>>>>> but provides a better base from which to work. Some of us who did
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on our own to
>>>>>>>>> some degree, but we would probably have adopted it more easily
>>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>>> had training in an NFB center.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be
>>>>>>>>> more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons for
>>>>>>>>> positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the details of
>>>>>>>>> the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed myself to be
>>>>>>>>> talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be available
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> close to an hour, and how the airline employee refused to tell me
>>>>>>>>> which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some of what you are hearing
>>>>>>>>> here would have been a part of your training at an NFB Center. You
>>>>>>>>> would likely have been given the chance to interact personally with
>>>>>>>>> people who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>>>>>>>>> questions. You can get some of this information here, of course,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> what about the many experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because it
>>>>>>>>> might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are things you
>>>>>>>>> didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent time in one of
>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>> centers as indicated above, but I don't really think that is the
>>>>>>>>> point. The point is how can we help you now and how can you help us
>>>>>>>>> and other blind people? Are there things you are not comfortable
>>>>>>>>> doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable doing? We could
>>>>>>>>> even explore here some of the things that many of us have overcome
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> a result of the encouragement from others.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as I
>>>>>>>>> see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't care
>>>>>>>>> that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
>>>>>>>>> centers or not. I care more that you have what you need to get a
>>>>>>>>> job
>>>>>>>>> when you get out of college and that you are able to live as full a
>>>>>>>>> life as you can live, and I believe there are ways we can help you
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> local training simply must have been far, far inferior to anything
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing
>>>>>>>>>> reasons as to why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't know
>>>>>>>>>> me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB
>>>>>>>>>> mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in
>>>>>>>>>> real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
>>>>>>>>>> months.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 21
>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a replacement
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>> If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>>>> locally
>>>>>>>>>> then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>>>> Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>>>> knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own areas,
>>>>>>>>>> and come back from our schools with the confidence and the mobility
>>>>>>>>>> and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>>>> If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>>>> philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then a
>>>>>>>>>> dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an
>>>>>>>>>> adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>> when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do so.
>>>>>>>>>> Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>>> when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not
>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>> to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog, or
>>>>>>>>>> whatever the issues are. That I know the skills to get me where I
>>>>>>>>>> want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>>>>>>>>> Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>>>> Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>>>> Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness to
>>>>>>>>>> one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel Advocate!Cheryl
>>>>>>>>>> Echevarria,
>>>>>>>>>> Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>>>>> varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>>>> Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>>>> Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>>>>>> #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for
>>>>>>>>>> the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.
>>>>>>>>>> Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013
>>>>>>>>>> and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>>>> 12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>>>> Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>>>>>>>>> friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>>>>>>> affiliate
>>>>>>>>>> as well. You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book
>>>>>>>>>> through us.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>> time for mobility training I already had purely for the purpose of
>>>>>>>>>> getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
>>>>>>>>>> straightaway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>>>>> 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a real
>>>>>>>>>> lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really think
>>>>>>>>>> that's the case with guide schools. There are some schools which
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> things differently from others. But, there are people who prefer
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> approach over another. I don't really think that NFB needs to get
>>>>>>>>>> involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>>>>>>>>> month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the
>>>>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>>>> of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school,
>>>>>>>>>> should one be started. I don't know to many people who can give
>>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>>> a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>>>>>> past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her comments
>>>>>>>>>> below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog program:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>>>>> centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>>>>>> facility for housing students in training to be constructed. Hold
>>>>>>>>>> on folks.
>>>>>>>>>> Students
>>>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>>>> complete the
>>>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>>>>>> "Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to know
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
>>>>>>>>>> information on the applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike current
>>>>>>>>>> guide dog programs that must rely on references and other
>>>>>>>>>> information that may be true or false the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> have all ready had accurate information gathered for them by the
>>>>>>>>>> training center and can be assured that the applicant is a
>>>>>>>>>> suitable
>>>>>>>>>> candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>>>>>>>>> student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>>>>>>>>> transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that successfully
>>>>>>>>>> complete the cane travel component of their immersion training
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>>>>> other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>> students often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to
>>>>>>>>>> wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>>>>>>>>> participating in designated center activities. Like students who
>>>>>>>>>> undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training with
>>>>>>>>>> dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to completion
>>>>>>>>>> of the training. In the beginning they could be accompanied by an
>>>>>>>>>> experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel
>>>>>>>>>> and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their
>>>>>>>>>> dogs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The
>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>> would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs
>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>> donations. The usual period of socialization and puppy raising
>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide dog
>>>>>>>>>> programs. The dogs would return for a period of training when
>>>>>>>>>> they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are
>>>>>>>>>> ready
>>>>>>>>>> to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>>>>>>>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student receiving
>>>>>>>>>> the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>>>>>> could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain
>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>> once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
>>>>>>>>>> training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>>>>>>>>> ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at a
>>>>>>>>>> cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>>>>>>>>> would like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>>>>>>>>> blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
>>>>>>>>>> references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption
>>>>>>>>>> agencies
>>>>>>>>>> place children into homes surely we can figure out a way to more
>>>>>>>>>> accurately know what sort of situation the dog will be placed
>>>>>>>>>> into.
>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for dealing
>>>>>>>>>> with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I don't see any
>>>>>>>>>> reason why these agencies can't be used in cases of neglect or
>>>>>>>>>> abuse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
>>>>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing Eye's
>>>>>>>>>> concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had
>>>>>>>>>> increased over the years with the cost of living. It has been $150
>>>>>>>>>> since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the
>>>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at the
>>>>>>>>>> various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to
>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>> a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings, fancy food,
>>>>>>>>>> excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%4
>>>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40
>>>>>>>>>> verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlso
>>>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cherylandma
>>>>>>>>>> xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlso
>>>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson
>> %
>>> 4
>>>>>>>>>> 0visi.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/yogabare13%40gma
>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.ne
>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.c
>>>>>> om
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gma
>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>> com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>> com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gma
>>> il.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>> com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/glowhi%40centurylink.n
>> et
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40att.net
>
> _______________________________________________
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