[Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
Peter Donahue
pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
Sat Mar 23 17:22:23 UTC 2013
Hello Mike and everyone,
Chris Cole is not NBPCB approved.
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Miller" <brianrmiller88 at gmail.com>
To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
Yes, absolutely, and there are no doubt other programs I am not mentioning
that do likewise.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 10:15 AM
> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>
> The Chris Cole Center in TX also more-or-less adopts our methods.
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Brian Miller
> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 7:05 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>
> Julie is correct. Iowa was really the the first NFB training
> center, as it was run by Ken Jernigan, a leader in the NFB at
> that time and afterward, and the director of the Iowa
> Commission for the Blind from 1958-1978. There were other
> centers and programs that were soon modeled after Iowa,
> including Kansas, Idahoe, and Nebraska. These were all
> public VR agencies, run in large part with NFB philosophies
> underlying their model of training.
>
> Hawaii, which is not a blind agency, but what is often
> referred to as a combined VR agency, has a blind services
> division, and runs a residential training program called
> Ho'opono. The Ho'opono center adopted structured discovery
> and other training methods often associated with the NFB, and
> in fact had an intensive training arrangement with Iowa's
> Department for the Blind to show them how to do it. This
> was, however, a much more recent development -- starting
> approximately ten years ago. Again, like all of the agencies
> mentioned above, these are publicly funded, VR agencies, not
> private non-profit training centers like those the NFB
> established in Louisiana, Mennesota, and Colorado.
>
> Brian M
>
>
>
>
> On 3/23/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Julie J.
> > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 4:16 AM
> > To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
> >
> > Peter said: *Several other state programs for the blind
> have adopted
> > the Structured-Discovery Immersion Model and base their orientation
> > and adjustment programs on the NFB philosophy. Hawaii,
> Nebraska, and
> > New Mexico are examples.*
> >
> > Not exactly. Nebraska and Iowa were using structure discovery
> > learning long before the NFB centers were formed. Iowa was
> the model
> > for Nebraska way back in the 70's. These training center
> philosophies
> > predate the NFB centers. I'm not sure what Iowa is doing
> today, but
> > historically I believe them to be the model for the NFB
> centers today.
> >
> > Sorry I know next to nothing about New Mexico and Hawaii.
> >
> > Julie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/22/2013 8:16 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
> >> Good evening everyone,
> >>
> >> Before we can talk about drawing up business plans, securing
> >> funding, and building a facility we first need to discuss
> the issue
> >> among ourselves something that has yet to happen during
> our national
> >> convention. It wasn't through NAGDU that I learned about GDB'S
> >> initiative to employ blind
> > persons
> >> in its training department but rather I learned it from school
> >> representatives staffing their table during the 2005
> national convention.
> >>
> >> This afternoon I checked the NAGDU Web site for any
> information
> >> as to the status of guide dog-related issues and did not find any
> >> recent updates nor did I find the most recent issue of
> "Harness UP"
> >> NAGDU's Newsletter.
> > If
> >> anyone has the most recent issue of Harness Up they can
> send I'd like
> >> to read it.
> >>
> >> Since I paid my NAGDU dues at last year's national
> convention I
> > should
> >> be receiving Harness UP but haven't gotten a single issue.
> If I was
> >> receiving it like I should and discovered that there has been
> >> activity concerning the issues we've been discussing I would have
> >> kept my mouth
> > shut!
> >> Marion if you could check to be sure I receive future issues of
> >> Harness Up I'll appreciate that very much.
> >>
> >> No guide dog school forces students to attend if they
> choose not
> >> too
> > do
> >> so. An NFB guide dog program would be no different. We
> have members
> >> who
> > for
> >> whatever reason choose to attend traditional centers
> instead of the
> >> NFB centers and their choices are respected.
> >>
> >> As for support from our national leadership the issue
> has never
> >> been discussed at convention let alone receiving a vote of
> yes or no.
> >> I recall
> > in
> >> 1984 that a discussion of whether or not an orientation
> center should
> >> be housed at our national headquarters. I was there and have
> >> recordings of
> > that
> >> convention item. In the end it was decided to continue to support
> >> efforts
> > to
> >> improve the type and quality of training offered by existing
> > rehabilitation
> >> programs and to assist states wishing to establish new programs.
> >> Since
> > that
> >> time three NFB training centers were established in Colorado,
> >> Louisiana,
> > and
> >> Minnesota. Several other state programs for the blind
> have adopted
> >> the Structured-Discovery Immersion Model and base their
> orientation
> >> and adjustment programs on the NFB philosophy. Hawaii,
> Nebraska, and
> >> New
> > Mexico
> >> are examples of the latter case. All of the
> above-mentioned centers
> >> and state programs have received approval from the
> National Blindness
> >> Professional Certification Board (NBPCB.) No guide dog school has
> >> received this agency approval certification.
> >>
> >> Just as this discussion occurred in 1984 a similar item to
> >> discuss
> > the
> >> establishment of an NFB guide dog program needs to take
> place during
> >> the national convention to permit all interested persons
> to be heard
> >> and to
> > air
> >> their views to determine what direction such an initiative should
> >> take if
> > it
> >> goes anywhere at all. This is how we'll find out how much support
> >> there is for the creation of such a program and whether it will
> >> receive support
> > from
> >> the entire organization. Now to catch a few missed hours of
> >> Bach-Around-The_Clock.
> >>
> >> Peter Donahue
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "RJ Sandefur"<joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
> >> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 3:46 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
> >>
> >>
> >> Peter, I understand the concern but I forsee some isues
> with having
> >> an NFB guide dog school. 1 Would national support such a
> project? 2
> >> people 3
> > Would
> >> the school require the person to come there? Just my thoughts. RJ
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Peter Donahue"<pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> >> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 3:00 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hello Kelby and everyone,
> >>>
> >>> And that's fine. Just be willing to support the creation of a
> >>> guide
> > dog
> >>> program for those willing to make those kind of commitments. I
> >>> wouldn't
> > be
> >>> caught dead working in another sheltered workshop but
> this morning
> >>> signed our petition to urge Congress to adopt the
> legislation to end
> >>> the payment of subminimum wages to blind shop workers.
> >>>
> >>> If people are happy with the guide dog program they attend more
> >>> power to them but they have no right to stand in the way of those
> >>> desiring a guide dog school that is more innovative and
> is willing
> >>> to take guide dog training and placement to a new dimension.
> >>>
> >>> Peter Donahue
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Kelby Carlson"<kelbycarlson at gmail.com>
> >>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 9:18 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up
> that much
> >>> time for mobility training I already had purely for the
> purpose of
> >>> getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
> straightaway.
> >>>
> >>> Kelby
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Cindy Handel"<cindy425 at verizon.net
> >>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date
> sent: Thu, 21
> >>> Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
> >>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
> >>>
> >>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there
> was a real
> >>> lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really think
> >>> that's the case with guide schools. There are some
> schools which do
> >>> things differently from others. But, there are people who prefer
> >>> one approach over another. I don't really think that NFB
> needs to
> >>> get involved with guide dog training.
> >>>
> >>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
> >>> month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the
> >>> number of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog
> >>> school, should one be started. I don't know to many
> people who can
> >>> give up a year of their life to get a guide dog.
> >>>
> >>> Cindy
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Peter Donahue
> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
> >>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> >>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
> >>>
> >>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
> >>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
> >>> past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with
> her comments
> >>> below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an
> NFB-run guide
> >>> dog program:
> >>>
> >>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
> >>> centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
> >>> facility for housing students in training to be
> constructed. Hold
> >>> on folks. Students wishing to obtain a guide dog from the NFB's
> >>> program would be required to complete the
> >>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
> >>> "Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to know
> >>> the student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of
> >>> background information on the applicant to the guide dog unit.
> >>> Unlike current guide dog programs that must rely on
> references and
> >>> other information that may be true or false the NFB guide dog
> >>> program will have all ready had accurate information gathered for
> >>> them by the training center and can be assured that the
> applicant is
> >>> a suitable candidate for a dog.
> >>>
> >>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
> >>> student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
> >>> transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that
> successfully
> >>> complete the cane travel component of their immersion
> training would
> >>> be eligible to receive a dog.
> >>> This
> >>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
> >>> other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the
> wasted time
> >>> students often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
> >>>
> >>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be
> required to
> >>> wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
> >>> participating in designated center activities. Like students who
> >>> undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those
> training with
> >>> dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to
> completion
> >>> of the training. In the beginning they could be
> accompanied by an
> >>> experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected
> to travel
> >>> and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their
> >>> dogs.
> >>>
> >>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
> >>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.
> The program
> >>> would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs
> >>> from donations. The usual period of socialization and
> puppy raising
> >>> wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide dog
> >>> programs. The dogs would return for a period of training when
> >>> they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the
> dogs are ready
> >>> to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
> >>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student
> receiving
> >>> the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
> >>> could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to
> obtain dogs
> >>> once their "Bootcamp"
> >>> training is complete would transfer to that center for
> training with
> >>> the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house
> students in
> >>> training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
> >>>
> >>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an
> NFB-run guide
> >>> dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
> >>> ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must
> continue at a
> >>> cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
> >>>
> >>> Peter Donahue
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Julie J."<julielj at neb.rr.com
> >>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List"<blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
> >>> would like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
> >>> blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
> >>> references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption
> >>> agencies place children into homes surely we can figure
> out a way to
> >>> more accurately know what sort of situation the dog will
> be placed
> >>> into. Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for
> >>> dealing with animal abuse, the police and animal control.
> I don't
> >>> see any reason why these agencies can't be used in cases
> of neglect
> >>> or abuse.
> >>>
> >>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the
> cost of the
> >>> dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely
> valid point.
> >>> We have to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like
> the Seeing
> >>> Eye's concept of charging the student. I do wish that
> the cost had
> >>> increased over the years with the cost of living. It has
> been $150
> >>> since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think
> that's the right
> >>> year.
> >>> $150
> >>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
> >>>
> >>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
> >>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you
> look at the
> >>> various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to
> >>> train a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings, fancy
> >>> food, excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
> >>>
> >>> Julie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
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> >> -----
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