[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?

Sat Mar 23 21:29:53 UTC 2013

Gary,

I want to offer my mutual appreciation for this discussion.  The 
list of things the NFB knows are things I also know, and believe 
in passionately.  I am always encouraged by this, as I like 
finding common ground from which to discuss things.  There is 
know thing that I think I would disagree with you on, but it 
actually has a lot less to do with blindness at all.  In a 
previous message, you said that if someone is unwilling to join a 
group toward a specific cause, than they are morally obligated 
not to complain if said cause is not succeeding.  I think I 
understand your point here-let me know if I have stated it 
inaccurately.  However, let me offer you a counter-example.  I 
follow religious news closely, so I know a fair amount about the 
abuse scandals in the Catholic church.  I am not Catholic and 
don't have any plans to be.  Nor, in the specific position I am 
in geographically, contextually and vocationally, am I likely to 
have some or any influence.  But I'm not sure your conclusion is 
supported by your premise: that collective action is the best way 
to influence events.  It definitely can be effective, but does 
that mean it is the only means of inflencing the world? Or even 
the primary means? Can I not influence political, ethical or 
religious attitudes locally, through discussion and example? Am I 
forbidden from expressing moral convictions simply because I am 
not actively working in a collective to support those 
convictions? I would need a more substantial argument to be 
convinced that's the case.
Kelby

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net
To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 15:46:33 -0500
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB 
Centers or Not?

Hello, Kelby.  I appreciate your honesty and the fact that you 
are talking
about feelings rather than making accusations.

There are comments which are sometimes made in the NFB that make 
me
uncomfortable.  I do not think we know the truth about blindness.  
It is a
nice statement, but it is too overarching for me to embrace.  I 
think we
know some truths about blindness that make sense.  I think we 
know that good
training can make a tremendous difference in how people function 
in the
world.  I think we know that it makes sense for society to 
support
rehabilitation programs that lead to our education and 
employment.  I think
we know that it makes sense to carry a cane that is long enough 
to tell you
there is a poll or a sign in your path before you actually come 
in contact
with it.  I think we know that being literate is helpful in the 
information
society and that this issue must be addressed so that many blind 
people have
opportunity.  I think we know that an important element of 
changing attitudes
about blindness comes from interacting with and collectively 
addressing the
misconceptions that cause a social worker to say there is no way 
she can, in
good conscience, place a frail little infant in the care of two 
blind people
unless they can guarantee her they will have 24x7 sighted 
assistance.

I can't think of one person who believes that they are superior 
by virtue of
the fact that they are blind.  I can, however, think of a number 
of people
who believe they are inferior because they once had sight and no 
longer do.
I do believe that there are times when people react so strongly 
to the
notion that we are broken human beings that they make it sound as 
though we
are somehow special or superior, but I think this has more to do 
with
changing the underlying assumptions of our discussions than it 
does a true
sense of superiority.

I am glad you are part of this list, whether or not you decide to 
join the
national Federation of the blind.  I feel the same way about 
Desiree.  I
welcome the opportunity to exchange points of view, and I do not 
consider it
a failure of communication if I failed to change your mind or you 
failed to
change mine.  As long as we can communicate civilly and actually 
try to
understand what the other person is saying, I think this kind of
conversation is very worthwhile.

Warmly,

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
kelby
carlson
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:51 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB 
Centers or
Not?

My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way 
or the
highway" mentality.  Despite protestations to the contrary, I get 
the
distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* 
of
understanding and living with blindness.  While the NFB's 
particular
methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to 
commend
it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing.  I also 
detect a kind
of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is 
unhelpful.  It's
one thing to have a like-minded community, but I sometimes feel 
as if there
is a kind of feeling of superiority over sighted people--or even
non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out of the loop and 
out of place
at some NFB events because I wasn't "plugged in", didn't know the 
lingo, and
didn't have the kind of personal history that most other 
federationists seem
to have.  I cannot use these experiences to discourage anyone 
from joining
the NFB, nor do I wish to.  As I said previously in this 
discussion, I am
uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience.  
This, then, is
not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains more 
about me
than the Federation.  I hope that helps clarify a little.

On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
 A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, 
but by
 their dedication to the cause.  And a warrior doesn't need to be 
on the
 battlefield to prove his worth to society.

 On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
 Be a warrior.  Be on the frong lines.

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
 kelby carlson
 Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB 
Centers
 or Not?

 My perspective is similar to Desiree's.  I have every intention 
of
 getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way.  
However, I
 have reservations about all of the organizations there are.  
(It's
 totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For 
now,
 I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind
 person and do what I can individually to help others as well.  
There
 is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place 
where
 that isn't how I believe i can best function.  I do hope to 
attend the
 convention one of these years, though, and my mind could 
definitely
 change!

 I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the 
Federation
 at times.  I need to work harder on moderating what I say and 
how I
 say it.  But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the
 Federation and a great deal that I like and agree with.
 Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to the 
NFB
 philosophy.  How it is worked out practically is sometimes where 
the
rubber meets the road.

 On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
 Hi,
 While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on 
why I
 choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
 It's not about having a superiority complex.  I don't consider 
myself
 to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.  
however, I
 like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden 
agendas
 at arm's length.  That's why my involvement only extends as far 
as
 listservs will take it.  I feel that reading messages written by
 individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention 
realistic
 view, of how the members of each organization live, work and
 interact in day-to-day life.  At a meeting or convention, 
there's the
 expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say 
the
 right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases.  
That's not
 limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a 
fact
 of human nature.  When you draw a large number of like-minded
 individuals together, and get them all to focus on one specific
 problem, proposition, or what have you, the people will either 
put
 their best or worst foot forward collectively.  There is little 
time
 for individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to 
take
 root and stand above the rest.
 I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified 
as
 a loner in a lot of ways.  As I said, I think and draw 
conclusions
 best when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to
 speak.  I take what is important to me, what fits in with my 
values
 and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my life.  I don't 
honestly
 feel that I need to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor
 should I be told that I have no purpose unless I'm at the 
forefront
 of every high and low point in the organization's history.  I am
 content with this, and I feel that I have a right to speak out 
about
 it, since it's a viewpoint which most who hold it would probably 
not
 be comfortable expressing for fear of being blamed and shamed.

 On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
 Hello, Peter.  I have not followed this thread, but I have 
looked
 at one or two of your posts.  I think it is a shame that you 
will
 not join the American Council of the Blind or the National
 Federation of the Blind.
 I
 suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being 
what
 you might call an independent.  Perhaps you are right, but my 
own
 life experience indicates that having influence means joining 
with
 others of like mind, exploring how you can understand them and 
get
 them to understand you, and then acting together in a concerted 
way
 to bring about the better world we all say we want.  One popular
 buzzword you can't help but hear if you listen to five minutes 
of
 the news is the word infrastructure, but there is a lot to be 
said
 for having a way to effect the change we want.  For me this is 
the
 National Federation of the Blind.  For others it is the American
 Council of the Blind.  Though the organizations may disagree 
from
 time to time, one thing most all of us share is that we have 
made a
 commitment to blind people that extends beyond words.  We are
 willing to put our time, our energy, and our money into helping
 you, whether or not you appreciate that we do so or ever raise a
 finger to help us.  Much distance remains for us to travel, and 
we
 certainly can use a willing hand at the oars.  Thanks for 
reading.

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
 Peter Wolfe
 Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
 Centers or Not?

     In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
 improvization not technique persay.  It doesn't matter where you 
get
 any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, 
Lion's
 Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever information.  
Make-up
 yoru own techniques and sell a book for all I care as long as it
 works for you that is all that counts.  I could careless as logn 
as
 you share the information with fellow blind individuals that is 
my
 thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest group that
 your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with 
a
 rotten situation to make it better.  By the way, I'm never going 
to
 be part of NFB, ACB, AFB or any of them.

 sincerely,
 Peter

 On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
 Kelby,

 Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive 
answer.
 I can only tell you that I received training before there were 
NFB
 centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and 
have
 generally managed my life successfully.  However, in the work I
 have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I
 missed when I was trained.  I think I have picked up much of 
what
 I missed primarily because of my association with others in the
 Federation.  It has more to do with being confident enough to 
try
 new situations and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I
 don't know exactly how at the start, and less to do with how 
many
 inches I swing my cane left and right.  In my opinion, and you 
may
 see this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the
 quality of one's travel skills and more to do with whether one
 actually gets out and travels.  These are not easy things to 
measure.

 I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
 past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example.  What I
 do know is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes
 that surround us in a way that is hard to measure.  Even though 
we
 have some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are
 exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe it if 
we
 are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and someone
 tells us we can't do it.  I believe there was a time when there
 was a clear dividing line between NFB training centers and many
 other centers.  We believed that we have to affect one's 
attitude
 toward blindness and oneself while most other centers believed 
that
they need to concentrate on teaching techniques.
 The common belief among some other centers was that changing
 attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
 outside of their mandate.

 Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
 there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's 
belief
 in oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so 
some
 of the lines are not as clear as they once were.  Still, I am
 skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of
 months, but of course, it depends some upon the starting point 
of the
individual.

 It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
 all good travelers.  The person making the observation, who 
shall
 remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help
 but there were too many people to try to help all at once.
 However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
 were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and 
that
 what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was 
not
 the case for the traveler.  This isn't meant to diminish the 
role
 of good travel techniques, only to make the point that there is
 more to travel than techniques.  Having said all this, though, I
 also believe that what we have come to call structured discovery
 is a valid difference in how one learns to travel.  In some 
ways,
 it takes longer to learn but provides a better base from which 
to
 work.  Some of us who did not attend NFB training centers have
 adopted this approach on our own to some degree, but we would
 probably have adopted it more easily having had training in an 
NFB
center.

 I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
 Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have 
taken.
 Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to
 be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons
 for positions we might have taken.  I won't bore you with the
 details of the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed
 myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one 
not
 be available for close to an hour, and how the airline employee
 refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to.  Anyway, some 
of
 what you are hearing here would have been a part of your 
training
 at an NFB Center.  You would likely have been given the chance 
to
 interact personally with people who had similar experiences so
 that you could ask them questions.  You can get some of this
 information here, of course, but what about the many experiences 
that
are not discussed?

 Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one 
another.
 My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, 
because
 it might be all right.  I feel pretty certain that there are
 things you didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent
 time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I don't 
really
 think that is the point.  The point is how can we help you now 
and
 how can you help us and other blind people?  Are there things 
you
 are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone else here is
 comfortable doing?  We could even explore here some of the 
things
 that many of us have overcome as a result of the encouragement 
from
others.

 Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly 
as
 I see them, isn't that always true?  In the end, though, I don't
 care that much whether you believe there is a difference in
 training centers or not.  I care more that you have what you 
need
 to get a job when you get out of college and that you are able 
to
 live as full a life as you can live, and I believe there are 
ways
 we can help you do that.

 Best regards,

 Steve Jacobson

 On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:

I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from 
federationists-that
my local training simply must have been far, far inferior to
anything the NFB has.  I have as of yet seen no actual compelling
evidence for this claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has
offered me convincing reasons as to why the training I have is
bad.  (Those who don't know me can't offer any reasons, as they
don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so wonderful, I wish
they would allow people interested to pay for a little 
instruction
to get a sense of their methodology in real space time rather 
than
forcing people to commit to six to nine months.

Kelby

 ----- Original Message -----
From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario

Well we all need good mobility skills.  A dog is not a 
replacement
for mobility skills.  Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a
guide dog.
If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
locally then you don't know what you are missing.
Never going to them myself.  I have seen what someone with no
knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and the
mobility and the other services that are given there.
If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and 
then
a dog.  I have not been blind all my life.  I lost my vision as 
an
adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
know when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction 
to do
so.
Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in
between a dog, or whatever the issues are.  That I know the 
skills
to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
Have a great night all.
Take care and god bless.
Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
to one another; and with the philosophy of the great 
organization.
Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism

Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the 
Way
in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
resources.
Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families 
and
friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
affiliate as well.  You do not need to be a member of the 
NFB.org,
just book through us.

 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
 To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
Scenario

 I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that
much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
purpose of getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
straightaway.

 Kelby

  ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
 To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org  Date sent:
Thu,
21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
Scenario

 When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
 real lack of quality training for blind people.  I don't really
 think that's the case with guide schools.  There are some 
schools
 which do things differently from others.  But, there are people
 who prefer one approach over another.  I don't really think that
 NFB needs to get involved with guide dog training.

 As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the 
nine
month NFB  center training, first, this will severely limit the
number of  people  choosing to have training from an NFB guide 
dog
school, should  one be  started.  I don't know to many people who
can give up a year of  their life  to get a guide dog.

 Cindy

 -----Original Message-----
 From: Peter Donahue
 Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List
 Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario

 Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
     Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
past so she  knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her
comments below I'd  like to  suggest a possible scenario for an
NFB-run guide dog program:

         Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
centers for  blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
facility for  housing  students in training to be constructed.
Hold on folks.
Students
 wishing to
 obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
complete the
 6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's
"Bootcamp  training" the center has an opportunity to come to 
know
the student  inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of
background information on the  applicant to the guide dog unit.
Unlike current guide dog  programs that must  rely on references
and other information that may be true or  false the NFB  guide
dog program will have all ready had accurate information  
gathered
for  them by the training center and can be assured that the
applicant  is a  suitable candidate for a dog.

     This approach will also assure the guide dog program that 
the
student is  up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
transferring  them to the  use of a dog.  Students that
successfully complete the cane  travel component  of their
immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
 This
 approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
other  aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
time students  often experience when at guide dog training 
facilities.

     Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
 to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes
 and participating in designated center activities.  Like 
students
 who undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those 
training
 with dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to
 completion of the training.  In the beginning they could be
 accompanied by an experienced guide dog user/trainer but would 
be
 expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on 
their
own using their dogs.

     As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
 operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.  The
 program would operate its own breeding component or obtain
 suitable dogs from donations.  The usual period of socialization
 and puppy raising wouldn't be that much different than is done 
by
 current guide dog programs.  The dogs would return for a period
 of training when they're taught how to guide a blind person.
 Once the dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind 
owner
 they along with an instructor would be sent to the center where
 the student receiving the dog will be trained.  Alternatively 
the
 NFB guide dog program could operate from one of our centers.
 Those wishing to obtain dogs once their "Bootcamp"
 training is complete would transfer to that center for training
 with the dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house
 students in training is one way to reduce the cost of training 
guide
dogs.

     The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
 guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have
 additional ideas.  If it's to happen at all the discussion must
 continue at a cost of 0 to participants.  All the best.

 Peter Donahue

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
 To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup

 I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I
would  like to see a more in depth background investigation of 
the
blind  applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require more
references, ask  the neighbors...whatever it takes.  Adoption
agencies place  children  into homes surely we can figure out a
way to more accurately know  what  sort of situation the dog will 
be
placed into.
Secondly, I think  there  are already agencies in place for
dealing with animal abuse, the  police  and animal control.  I
don't see any reason why these agencies  can't be  used in cases
of neglect or abuse.

 In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
the dog  in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid 
point.
We
 have
 to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing
Eye's concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost
had increased  over the years with the cost of living.  It has
been $150 since  the  beginning of the school in 1928.  I think
that's the right year.
 $150
 was a very different sum of money then and now.

 I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
 substantially lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at
 the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs
 to train a dog, the numbers vary widely.  All those buildings,
 fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.

 Julie

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 --
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 Peter Q Wolfe, BA
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 "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for 
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 Peter Q Wolfe
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