[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Ray Foret Jr
rforetjr at att.net
Sat Mar 23 22:37:05 UTC 2013
Hey, if that proves anything, it proves that the NFB is indeed a cross section of society-a point of which we should be fiercely prowd.
Sent from my mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind built-in!
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
On Mar 23, 2013, at 4:12 PM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com> wrote:
> You're right, I won't be anytime soon Ray. Smile.
>
> Only, I am a liberal, not a conservative like a few have come out the
> list as. Lol.
>
> On 3/23/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Hello, Kelby. I appreciate your honesty and the fact that you are talking
>> about feelings rather than making accusations.
>>
>> There are comments which are sometimes made in the NFB that make me
>> uncomfortable. I do not think we know the truth about blindness. It is a
>> nice statement, but it is too overarching for me to embrace. I think we
>> know some truths about blindness that make sense. I think we know that
>> good
>> training can make a tremendous difference in how people function in the
>> world. I think we know that it makes sense for society to support
>> rehabilitation programs that lead to our education and employment. I think
>> we know that it makes sense to carry a cane that is long enough to tell you
>> there is a poll or a sign in your path before you actually come in contact
>> with it. I think we know that being literate is helpful in the information
>> society and that this issue must be addressed so that many blind people
>> have
>> opportunity. I think we know that an important element of changing
>> attitudes
>> about blindness comes from interacting with and collectively addressing the
>> misconceptions that cause a social worker to say there is no way she can,
>> in
>> good conscience, place a frail little infant in the care of two blind
>> people
>> unless they can guarantee her they will have 24x7 sighted assistance.
>>
>> I can't think of one person who believes that they are superior by virtue
>> of
>> the fact that they are blind. I can, however, think of a number of people
>> who believe they are inferior because they once had sight and no longer do.
>> I do believe that there are times when people react so strongly to the
>> notion that we are broken human beings that they make it sound as though we
>> are somehow special or superior, but I think this has more to do with
>> changing the underlying assumptions of our discussions than it does a true
>> sense of superiority.
>>
>> I am glad you are part of this list, whether or not you decide to join the
>> national Federation of the blind. I feel the same way about Desiree. I
>> welcome the opportunity to exchange points of view, and I do not consider
>> it
>> a failure of communication if I failed to change your mind or you failed to
>> change mine. As long as we can communicate civilly and actually try to
>> understand what the other person is saying, I think this kind of
>> conversation is very worthwhile.
>>
>> Warmly,
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
>> carlson
>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:51 PM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
>> Not?
>>
>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or the
>> highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get the
>> distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* of
>> understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's particular
>> methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to commend
>> it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also detect a kind
>> of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is unhelpful. It's
>> one thing to have a like-minded community, but I sometimes feel as if there
>> is a kind of feeling of superiority over sighted people--or even
>> non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out of the loop and out of place
>> at some NFB events because I wasn't "plugged in", didn't know the lingo,
>> and
>> didn't have the kind of personal history that most other federationists
>> seem
>> to have. I cannot use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining
>> the NFB, nor do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am
>> uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience. This, then, is
>> not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains more about me
>> than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
>>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on the
>>> battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>
>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> kelby carlson
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>> or Not?
>>>>
>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
>>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
>>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now,
>>>> I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind
>>>> person and do what I can individually to help others as well. There
>>>> is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where
>>>> that isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to attend the
>>>> convention one of these years, though, and my mind could definitely
>>>> change!
>>>>
>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation
>>>> at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I
>>>> say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the
>>>> Federation and a great deal that I like and agree with.
>>>> Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB
>>>> philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes where the
>> rubber meets the road.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why I
>>>>> choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider myself
>>>>> to be better than anyone who is part of an organization. however, I
>>>>> like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden agendas
>>>>> at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far as
>>>>> listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
>>>>> individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention realistic
>>>>> view, of how the members of each organization live, work and
>>>>> interact in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention, there's the
>>>>> expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say the
>>>>> right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not
>>>>> limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact
>>>>> of human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded
>>>>> individuals together, and get them all to focus on one specific
>>>>> problem, proposition, or what have you, the people will either put
>>>>> their best or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time
>>>>> for individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take
>>>>> root and stand above the rest.
>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as
>>>>> a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions
>>>>> best when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to
>>>>> speak. I take what is important to me, what fits in with my values
>>>>> and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly
>>>>> feel that I need to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor
>>>>> should I be told that I have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront
>>>>> of every high and low point in the organization's history. I am
>>>>> content with this, and I feel that I have a right to speak out about
>>>>> it, since it's a viewpoint which most who hold it would probably not
>>>>> be comfortable expressing for fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked
>>>>>> at one or two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will
>>>>>> not join the American Council of the Blind or the National
>>>>>> Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being what
>>>>>> you might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but my own
>>>>>> life experience indicates that having influence means joining with
>>>>>> others of like mind, exploring how you can understand them and get
>>>>>> them to understand you, and then acting together in a concerted way
>>>>>> to bring about the better world we all say we want. One popular
>>>>>> buzzword you can't help but hear if you listen to five minutes of
>>>>>> the news is the word infrastructure, but there is a lot to be said
>>>>>> for having a way to effect the change we want. For me this is the
>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind. For others it is the American
>>>>>> Council of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from
>>>>>> time to time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
>>>>>> commitment to blind people that extends beyond words. We are
>>>>>> willing to put our time, our energy, and our money into helping
>>>>>> you, whether or not you appreciate that we do so or ever raise a
>>>>>> finger to help us. Much distance remains for us to travel, and we
>>>>>> certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks for reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Peter Wolfe
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get
>>>>>> any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's
>>>>>> Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever information. Make-up
>>>>>> yoru own techniques and sell a book for all I care as long as it
>>>>>> works for you that is all that counts. I could careless as logn as
>>>>>> you share the information with fellow blind individuals that is my
>>>>>> thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest group that
>>>>>> your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with a
>>>>>> rotten situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going to
>>>>>> be part of NFB, ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
>>>>>>> I can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
>>>>>>> centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>>>>>>> generally managed my life successfully. However, in the work I
>>>>>>> have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I
>>>>>>> missed when I was trained. I think I have picked up much of what
>>>>>>> I missed primarily because of my association with others in the
>>>>>>> Federation. It has more to do with being confident enough to try
>>>>>>> new situations and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I
>>>>>>> don't know exactly how at the start, and less to do with how many
>>>>>>> inches I swing my cane left and right. In my opinion, and you may
>>>>>>> see this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the
>>>>>>> quality of one's travel skills and more to do with whether one
>>>>>>> actually gets out and travels. These are not easy things to measure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
>>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I
>>>>>>> do know is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes
>>>>>>> that surround us in a way that is hard to measure. Even though we
>>>>>>> have some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are
>>>>>>> exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe it if we
>>>>>>> are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and someone
>>>>>>> tells us we can't do it. I believe there was a time when there
>>>>>>> was a clear dividing line between NFB training centers and many
>>>>>>> other centers. We believed that we have to affect one's attitude
>>>>>>> toward blindness and oneself while most other centers believed that
>> they need to concentrate on teaching techniques.
>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
>>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
>>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief
>>>>>>> in oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some
>>>>>>> of the lines are not as clear as they once were. Still, I am
>>>>>>> skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of
>>>>>>> months, but of course, it depends some upon the starting point of the
>> individual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
>>>>>>> all good travelers. The person making the observation, who shall
>>>>>>> remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help
>>>>>>> but there were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
>>>>>>> were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that
>>>>>>> what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not
>>>>>>> the case for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the role
>>>>>>> of good travel techniques, only to make the point that there is
>>>>>>> more to travel than techniques. Having said all this, though, I
>>>>>>> also believe that what we have come to call structured discovery
>>>>>>> is a valid difference in how one learns to travel. In some ways,
>>>>>>> it takes longer to learn but provides a better base from which to
>>>>>>> work. Some of us who did not attend NFB training centers have
>>>>>>> adopted this approach on our own to some degree, but we would
>>>>>>> probably have adopted it more easily having had training in an NFB
>> center.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to
>>>>>>> be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons
>>>>>>> for positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the
>>>>>>> details of the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed
>>>>>>> myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not
>>>>>>> be available for close to an hour, and how the airline employee
>>>>>>> refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some of
>>>>>>> what you are hearing here would have been a part of your training
>>>>>>> at an NFB Center. You would likely have been given the chance to
>>>>>>> interact personally with people who had similar experiences so
>>>>>>> that you could ask them questions. You can get some of this
>>>>>>> information here, of course, but what about the many experiences that
>> are not discussed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.
>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because
>>>>>>> it might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are
>>>>>>> things you didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent
>>>>>>> time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I don't really
>>>>>>> think that is the point. The point is how can we help you now and
>>>>>>> how can you help us and other blind people? Are there things you
>>>>>>> are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone else here is
>>>>>>> comfortable doing? We could even explore here some of the things
>>>>>>> that many of us have overcome as a result of the encouragement from
>> others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as
>>>>>>> I see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't
>>>>>>> care that much whether you believe there is a difference in
>>>>>>> training centers or not. I care more that you have what you need
>>>>>>> to get a job when you get out of college and that you are able to
>>>>>>> live as full a life as you can live, and I believe there are ways
>>>>>>> we can help you do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that
>>>>>>>> my local training simply must have been far, far inferior to
>>>>>>>> anything the NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling
>>>>>>>> evidence for this claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has
>>>>>>>> offered me convincing reasons as to why the training I have is
>>>>>>>> bad. (Those who don't know me can't offer any reasons, as they
>>>>>>>> don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so wonderful, I wish
>>>>>>>> they would allow people interested to pay for a little instruction
>>>>>>>> to get a sense of their methodology in real space time rather than
>>>>>>>> forcing people to commit to six to nine months.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>>> 21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a replacement
>>>>>>>> for mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a
>>>>>>>> guide dog.
>>>>>>>> If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>> locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>> Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>> knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
>>>>>>>> areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and the
>>>>>>>> mobility and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>> If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>> philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then
>>>>>>>> a dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an
>>>>>>>> adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
>>>>>>>> know when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do
>> so.
>>>>>>>> Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>> mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
>>>>>>>> either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in
>>>>>>>> between a dog, or whatever the issues are. That I know the skills
>>>>>>>> to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>>>>>>> Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>> Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>> Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
>>>>>>>> to one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way
>>>>>>>> in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
>>>>>>>> Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>>>>>>> Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>>> varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>> Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>> Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>>>> #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
>>>>>>>> for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
>> resources.
>>>>>>>> Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
>>>>>>>> 2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>> 12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>> Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>>>>>>> friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>>>>> affiliate as well. You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org,
>>>>>>>> just book through us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>> much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
>>>>>>>> purpose of getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
>> straightaway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
>>>>>>>> Thu,
>>>>>>>> 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>>>>>>>> real lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really
>>>>>>>> think that's the case with guide schools. There are some schools
>>>>>>>> which do things differently from others. But, there are people
>>>>>>>> who prefer one approach over another. I don't really think that
>>>>>>>> NFB needs to get involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>>>>>>> month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the
>>>>>>>> number of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog
>>>>>>>> school, should one be started. I don't know to many people who
>>>>>>>> can give up a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>>>> past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her
>>>>>>>> comments below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an
>>>>>>>> NFB-run guide dog program:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>>> centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>>>> facility for housing students in training to be constructed.
>>>>>>>> Hold on folks.
>>>>>>>> Students
>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>> complete the
>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>>>> "Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to know
>>>>>>>> the student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of
>>>>>>>> background information on the applicant to the guide dog unit.
>>>>>>>> Unlike current guide dog programs that must rely on references
>>>>>>>> and other information that may be true or false the NFB guide
>>>>>>>> dog program will have all ready had accurate information gathered
>>>>>>>> for them by the training center and can be assured that the
>>>>>>>> applicant is a suitable candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>>>>>>> student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>>>>>>> transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that
>>>>>>>> successfully complete the cane travel component of their
>>>>>>>> immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>>> other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
>>>>>>>> time students often experience when at guide dog training
>>>>>>>> facilities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
>>>>>>>> to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes
>>>>>>>> and participating in designated center activities. Like students
>>>>>>>> who undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training
>>>>>>>> with dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to
>>>>>>>> completion of the training. In the beginning they could be
>>>>>>>> accompanied by an experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be
>>>>>>>> expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their
>> own using their dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The
>>>>>>>> program would operate its own breeding component or obtain
>>>>>>>> suitable dogs from donations. The usual period of socialization
>>>>>>>> and puppy raising wouldn't be that much different than is done by
>>>>>>>> current guide dog programs. The dogs would return for a period
>>>>>>>> of training when they're taught how to guide a blind person.
>>>>>>>> Once the dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind owner
>>>>>>>> they along with an instructor would be sent to the center where
>>>>>>>> the student receiving the dog will be trained. Alternatively the
>>>>>>>> NFB guide dog program could operate from one of our centers.
>>>>>>>> Those wishing to obtain dogs once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>>>>>>> with the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house
>>>>>>>> students in training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide
>> dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>>>>>>> guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have
>>>>>>>> additional ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must
>>>>>>>> continue at a cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>>>>>>> would like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>>>>>>> blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
>>>>>>>> references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption
>>>>>>>> agencies place children into homes surely we can figure out a
>>>>>>>> way to more accurately know what sort of situation the dog will be
>> placed into.
>>>>>>>> Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for
>>>>>>>> dealing with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I
>>>>>>>> don't see any reason why these agencies can't be used in cases
>>>>>>>> of neglect or abuse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>>>>>>> the dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
>>>>>>>> point.
>>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
>>>>>>>> Eye's concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost
>>>>>>>> had increased over the years with the cost of living. It has
>>>>>>>> been $150 since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think
>>>>>>>> that's the right year.
>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at
>>>>>>>> the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs
>>>>>>>> to train a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings,
>>>>>>>> fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%4
>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> on%4
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>>>>>>> 0gma
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earth
>>>> link.ne
>>>>>> t
>>>>>>
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>>>> om
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