[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Ray Foret Jr
rforetjr at att.net
Sat Mar 23 22:38:34 UTC 2013
Well, Garry, I do the best I can.
thanks.
Sent from my mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind built-in!
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
On Mar 23, 2013, at 4:16 PM, "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
> I love this line--a way to a better life and not the core of it.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray Foret
> Jr
> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 6:24 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> Not?
>
> Well, I go barefooted all the time-or as much as possible: So, do I
> represent all people-sighted or blind who go barefooted? No. Some who go
> about in that condition are catholic, others not. Some pegan, others not.
> Do I represent all blind people? What you think? Course not. Some blind
> people I know do go barefooted a lot like me-still others just cannot stand
> it. Blindness ain't the reason though, or shouldn't be.
>
> I guess, if you think about it, we're all making the same point in our own
> unique ways. I once thought the NFB leadership would get on a blind
> person's case for laughing at anything funny having to do with blindness:
> but now, I think otherwise. Fact is this. There may be some individuals
> who take the NFB so far in their lives that it becomes the very definition
> of their lives. That is not the way one is supposed to deal with it. I am
> sure that Dr. Tenbroek did not intend for this to be the case when he
> founded the movement back in 1940. He meant it as a springboard to a better
> life-not the core of life.
>
>
> Sent from my mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind
> built-in!
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>
> On Mar 22, 2013, at 11:01 PM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've been to both NFB and non-NFB training centers. Truthfully, I
>> didn't really enjoy either of them. I cook, clean, travel and use my
>> computer quite well and have done it my way.
>>
>> Having said that, and this is kind of veering into the other topic
>> discussed here about organizations, their philosophies and such, one
>> of my biggest problems with the NFB is that at the particular center I
>> was at, and maybe not every NFB'er believes this? was that I was told
>> repeatedly that when I stepped outside, I represented ALL blind
>> people.
>> I'm half Mexican and half white. I won't be representing ALL Mexicans
>> or ALL white folks any time soon. I was born with a Tessier Cleft. I
>> was one of eight when I was born in the entire world with it, now I'm
>> one of between 50 and 56 people. I won't be representing every person
>> with a Tessier Cleft either. Do I represent ALL NIRVANA fans? ALL
>> NONPOINT fans? ALL SEETHER fans? No. Why? Because I'm one person, an
>> individual. I represent my beliefs, my ideas, my thoughts, feelings,
>> emotions, my experiences, not my Dad's or my sister's or anybody
>> else's on this list. So how can I possibly represent ALL blind people?
>>
>> As I said, this is what I learned. Correct me or explain the NFB
>> definition of representing ALL blind people if I'm off base and there
>> is one.
>> Michelle
>>
>> On 3/22/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>> But Desiree ...
>>>
>>> Sighted people *are* defined by the organizations they belong to. I
>>> dare say there are few Roman Catholics who proudly trumpet their
>>> faith while at the same time proudly exhibiting their membership
>>> cards to NARAL. (huge grin)
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Desiree Oudinot
>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 4:42 PM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>> or Not?
>>>
>>> That's sound advice. If sighted people aren't defined by the
>>> organizations or groups they belong to, why should we be? i'm not
>>> saying that anyone said or even implied that in this discussion, but
>>> I always get a distinct feeling from those who are deeply involved in
>>> either the NFB or ACB that they feel your thoughts and opinions don't
>>> matter if you're not also involved.
>>>
>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I have definitely met other blind people who were not in the NFB who
>>>> I
>>> have
>>>> learned a lot from. You just have to take everyone's philosophy use
>>>> the
>>>> parts that work foryou.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Desiree Oudinot
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:27 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>
>>>> I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support
>>>> from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's
>>>> den, though.
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way
>>>>> or the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I
>>>>> get the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the
>>>>> way* of understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's
>>>>> particular methodology may work for some people--and has a good
>>>>> deal to commend it--it's just not something I'm comfortable
>>>>> embracing. I also detect a kind of insularity--a constant "looking
>>>>> in" if you will--that is unhelpful. It's one thing to have a
>>>>> like-minded community, but I sometimes feel as if there is a kind
>>>>> of feeling of superiority over sighted people--or even
>>>>> non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out of the loop and out
>>>>> of place at some NFB events because I wasn't "plugged in", didn't
>>>>> know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of personal history that
>>>>> most other federationists seem to have. I cannot use these
>>>>> experiences to discourage anyone from joining the NFB, nor do I
>>>>> wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am
>>>>> uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience. This,
>>>>> then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains
> more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but
>>>>>> by their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be
>>>>>> on the battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> kelby carlson
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>>>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However,
>>>>>>> I have reservations about all of the organizations there are.
>>>>>>> (It's totally possible those reservations will go away some day.)
>>>>>>> For now, I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as
>>>>>>> a blind person and do what I can individually to help others as
>>>>>>> well. There is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just
>>>>>>> at a place where that isn't how I believe i can best function. I
>>>>>>> do hope to attend the convention one of these years, though, and
>>>>>>> my mind could definitely change!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the
>>>>>>> Federation at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I
>>>>>>> say and how I say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of
>>>>>>> value in the Federation and a great deal that I like and agree
>>>>>>> with. Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to
>>>>>>> the NFB philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes
> where the rubber meets the road.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on
>>>>>>>> why I choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider
>>>>>>>> myself to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
>>>>>>>> however, I like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and
>>>>>>>> hidden agendas at arm's length. That's why my involvement only
>>>>>>>> extends as far as listservs will take it. I feel that reading
>>>>>>>> messages written by individual members is a much more unbiased,
>>>>>>>> not to mention realistic view, of how the members of each
>>>>>>>> organization live, work and interact in day-to-day life. At a
>>>>>>>> meeting or convention, there's the expectation that one must
>>>>>>>> carry themselves a certain way, say the right things, be
>>>>>>>> inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not limited to
>>>>>>>> organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of
>>>>>>>> human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded
>>>>>>>> individuals together, and get them all to focus on one specific
>>>>>>>> problem, proposition, or what have you, the people will either
>>>>>>>> put their best or worst foot forward collectively. There is
>>>>>>>> little time for individual thought processes, emotions, or
>>>>>>>> personalities to take root and stand above the rest.
>>>>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified
>>>>>>>> as a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw
>>>>>>>> conclusions best when there are no distractions, no bells and
>>>>>>>> whistles so to speak. I take what is important to me, what fits
>>>>>>>> in with my values and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my
>>>>>>>> life. I don't honestly feel that I need to belong to anything to
>>>>>>>> find my purpose, nor should I be told that I have no purpose
>>>>>>>> unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low point in the
>>>>>>>> organization's history. I am content with this, and I feel that
>>>>>>>> I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint
>>>>>>>> which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable
>>>>>>>> expressing for fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have
>>>>>>>>> looked at one or two of your posts. I think it is a shame that
>>>>>>>>> you will not join the American Council of the Blind or the
>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being
>>>>>>>>> what you might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but
>>>>>>>>> my own life experience indicates that having influence means
>>>>>>>>> joining with others of like mind, exploring how you can
>>>>>>>>> understand them and get them to understand you, and then acting
>>>>>>>>> together in a concerted way to bring about the better world we
>>>>>>>>> all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help but hear
>>>>>>>>> if you listen to five minutes of the news is the word
>>>>>>>>> infrastructure, but there is a lot to be said for having a way
>>>>>>>>> to effect the change we want. For me this is the National
>>>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind. For others it is the American Council
>>>>>>>>> of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from time
>>>>>>>>> to time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
>>>>>>>>> commitment to blind people that extends beyond words. We are
>>>>>>>>> willing to put our time, our energy, and our money into helping
>>>>>>>>> you, whether or not you appreciate that we do so or ever raise
>>>>>>>>> a finger to help us. Much distance remains for us to travel,
>>>>>>>>> and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks for
>>>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>>>>>> Of Peter Wolfe
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you
>>>>>>>>> get any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB,
>>>>>>>>> Lion's Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever
>>>>>>>>> information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book for
>>>>>>>>> all I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts.
>>>>>>>>> I could careless as logn as you share the information with
>>>>>>>>> fellow blind individuals that is my thhing that it shouldn't
>>>>>>>>> matter what special interest group that your apart of cause we
>>>>>>>>> should all work together in dealing with a rotten situation to
>>>>>>>>> make it better. By the way, I'm never going to be part of NFB,
>>>>>>>>> ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> can only tell you that I received training before there were
>>>>>>>>>> NFB centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler
>>>>>>>>>> and have generally managed my life successfully. However, in
>>>>>>>>>> the work I have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there
>>>>>>>>>> are things I missed when I was trained. I think I have picked
>>>>>>>>>> up much of what I missed primarily because of my association
>>>>>>>>>> with others in the Federation.
>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new
>>>>>>>>>> situations and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I
>>>>>>>>>> don't know exactly how at the start, and less to do with how
>>>>>>>>>> many inches I swing my cane left and right. In my opinion,
>>>>>>>>>> and you may see this as a cop-out, it has less to do with
>>>>>>>>>> comparing the quality of one's travel skills and more to do
>>>>>>>>>> with whether one actually gets out and travels. These are not
>>>>>>>>>> easy things to measure.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
>>>>>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What
>>>>>>>>>> I do know is that most of us are affected by the general
>>>>>>>>>> attitudes that surround us in a way that is hard to measure.
>>>>>>>>>> Even though we have some idea of what our capabilities are,
>>>>>>>>>> unless we are exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to
>>>>>>>>>> believe it if we are uncertain how we would accomplish a given
>>>>>>>>>> thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I believe there
>>>>>>>>>> was a time when there was a clear dividing line between NFB
>>>>>>>>>> training centers and many other centers. We believed that we
>>>>>>>>>> have to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself
>>>>>>>>>> while most other centers believed that they need to
>>>>>>>>>> concentrate on teaching techniques.
>>>>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
>>>>>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
>>>>>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's
>>>>>>>>>> belief in oneself is probably as important as the techniques
>>>>>>>>>> used so some of the lines are not as clear as they once were.
>>>>>>>>>> Still, I am skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in
>>>>>>>>>> a couple of months, but of course, it depends some upon the
>>>>>>>>>> starting point of the individual.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are
>>>>>>>>>> not all good travelers. The person making the observation,
>>>>>>>>>> who shall remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump
>>>>>>>>>> in and help but there were too many people to try to help all
>>>>>>>>>> at once.
>>>>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad,
>>>>>>>>>> people were getting where they needed to go without
>>>>>>>>>> assistance, and that what appeared to be potentially
>>>>>>>>>> frustrating to an observer was not the case for the traveler.
>>>>>>>>>> This isn't meant to diminish the role of good travel
>>>>>>>>>> techniques, only to make the point that there is more to
>>>>>>>>>> travel than techniques. Having said all this, though, I also
>>>>>>>>>> believe that what we have come to call structured discovery is
>>>>>>>>>> a valid difference in how one learns to travel. In some ways,
>>>>>>>>>> it takes longer to learn but provides a better base from which
>>>>>>>>>> to work. Some of us who did not attend NFB training centers
>>>>>>>>>> have adopted this approach on our own to some degree, but we
>>>>>>>>>> would probably have adopted it more easily having had training
>>>>>>>>>> in an NFB center.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem
>>>>>>>>>> to be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes
>>>>>>>>>> reasons for positions we might have taken. I won't bore you
>>>>>>>>>> with the details of the time I almost missed a flight because
>>>>>>>>>> I allowed myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to
>>>>>>>>>> have one not be available for close to an hour, and how the
>>>>>>>>>> airline employee refused to tell me which gate I needed to get
>>>>>>>>>> to. Anyway, some of what you are hearing here would have been
>>>>>>>>>> a part of your training at an NFB Center. You would likely
>>>>>>>>>> have been given the chance to interact personally with people
>>>>>>>>>> who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>>>>>>>>>> questions. You can get some of this information here, of
>>>>>>>>>> course, but what about the many experiences that are not
>>>>>>>>>> discussed?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
>>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was,
>>>>>>>>>> because it might be all right. I feel pretty certain that
>>>>>>>>>> there are things you didn't get that you would have gotten had
>>>>>>>>>> you spent time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I
>>>>>>>>>> don't really think that is the point. The point is how can we
>>>>>>>>>> help you now and how can you help us and other blind people?
>>>>>>>>>> Are there things you are not comfortable doing that perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> someone else here is comfortable doing? We could even explore
>>>>>>>>>> here some of the things that many of us have overcome as a
>>>>>>>>>> result of the encouragement from others.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things
>>>>>>>>>> exactly as I see them, isn't that always true? In the end,
>>>>>>>>>> though, I don't care that much whether you believe there is a
>>>>>>>>>> difference in training centers or not. I care more that you
>>>>>>>>>> have what you need to get a job when you get out of college
>>>>>>>>>> and that you are able to live as full a life as you can live,
>>>>>>>>>> and I believe there are ways we can help you do that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
> federationists-that
>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>> local training simply must have been far, far inferior to
> anything
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me
> convincing
>>>>>>>>>>> reasons as to why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>> me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If
> NFB
>>>>>>>>>>> mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people
> interested
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology
> in
>>>>>>>>>>> real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to
> nine
>>>>>>>>>>> months.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
> 21
>>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a
> replacement
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a
> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>> If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>>>>> locally
>>>>>>>>>>> then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>>>>> Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
> areas,
>>>>>>>>>>> and come back from our schools with the confidence and the
> mobility
>>>>>>>>>>> and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>>>>> If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
> then
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an
>>>>>>>>>>> adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>> when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do
>>>>>>>>>>> so.
>>>>>>>>>>> Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>>>> when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not
>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>> to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog,
> or
>>>>>>>>>>> whatever the issues are. That I know the skills to get me where
> I
>>>>>>>>>>> want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>>>>>>>>>> Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>>>>> Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>>>>> Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the
> Way
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
>>>>>>>>>>> Advocate!Cheryl
>>>>>>>>>>> Echevarria,
>>>>>>>>>>> Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>>>>>> varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>>>>> Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>>>>> Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>>>>>>> #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
> for
>>>>>>>>>>> the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
> resources.
>>>>>>>>>>> Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
>>>>>>>>>>> 2013
>>>>>>>>>>> and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>>>>> 12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>>>>> Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
> and
>>>>>>>>>>> friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>>>>>>>> affiliate
>>>>>>>>>>> as well. You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just
> book
>>>>>>>>>>> through us.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>> time for mobility training I already had purely for the purpose
> of
>>>>>>>>>>> getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
>>>>>>>>>>> straightaway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
>>>>>>>>>>> Thu,
>>>>>>>>>>> 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>>>>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>>>> lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really think
>>>>>>>>>>> that's the case with guide schools. There are some schools which
>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>> things differently from others. But, there are people who prefer
>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>> approach over another. I don't really think that NFB needs to
> get
>>>>>>>>>>> involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>>>>>>>>>> month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the
>>>>>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>>>>> of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog
> school,
>>>>>>>>>>> should one be started. I don't know to many people who can
> give
>>>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>>>> a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>>>>>>> past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her
>>>>>>>>>>> comments
>>>>>>>>>>> below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog program:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>>>>>> centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>>>>>>> facility for housing students in training to be constructed.
>>>>>>>>>>> Hold
>>>>>>>>>>> on folks.
>>>>>>>>>>> Students
>>>>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>>>>> complete the
>>>>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>>>>>>> "Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to
> know
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of
> background
>>>>>>>>>>> information on the applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike
>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>> guide dog programs that must rely on references and other
>>>>>>>>>>> information that may be true or false the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> have all ready had accurate information gathered for them by
> the
>>>>>>>>>>> training center and can be assured that the applicant is a
>>>>>>>>>>> suitable
>>>>>>>>>>> candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>>>>>>>>>> student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>>>>>>>>>> transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>> complete the cane travel component of their immersion training
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>>>>>> other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>> students often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to
>>>>>>>>>>> wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>>>>>>>>>> participating in designated center activities. Like students who
>>>>>>>>>>> undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training
> with
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to
>>>>>>>>>>> completion
>>>>>>>>>>> of the training. In the beginning they could be accompanied by
> an
>>>>>>>>>>> experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to
> travel
>>>>>>>>>>> and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>>>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The
>>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>>> would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>> donations. The usual period of socialization and puppy raising
>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide dog
>>>>>>>>>>> programs. The dogs would return for a period of training when
>>>>>>>>>>> they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are
>>>>>>>>>>> ready
>>>>>>>>>>> to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>>>>>>>>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student
> receiving
>>>>>>>>>>> the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>>>>>>> could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>> once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students
> in
>>>>>>>>>>> training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>>>>>>>>>> ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at
> a
>>>>>>>>>>> cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>>>>>>>>>> would like to see a more in depth background investigation of
> the
>>>>>>>>>>> blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
>>>>>>>>>>> references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption
>>>>>>>>>>> agencies
>>>>>>>>>>> place children into homes surely we can figure out a way to
> more
>>>>>>>>>>> accurately know what sort of situation the dog will be placed
>>>>>>>>>>> into.
>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for
> dealing
>>>>>>>>>>> with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I don't see
>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>> reason why these agencies can't be used in cases of neglect or
>>>>>>>>>>> abuse.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
> point.
>>>>>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
>>>>>>>>>>> Eye's
>>>>>>>>>>> concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had
>>>>>>>>>>> increased over the years with the cost of living. It has been
>>>>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>>>>> since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the
>>>>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to
>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>> a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings, fancy food,
>>>>>>>>>>> excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%4
>>>>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40
>>>>>>>>>>> verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlso
>>>>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>>>>>> xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson
>>> %
>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>>>> 0visi.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/yogabare13%40gma
>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.ne
>>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
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> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>> com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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