[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?

Sat Mar 23 22:43:12 UTC 2013

Are you saying the ACB thinks that there is indeed synergy 
between blindness and sexual orientation? This seems a rather odd 
claim, and I've never heard anyone in the ACB say such a thing.

Kelby

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com
To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 15:37:51 -0700
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB 
Centers or Not?

We don't care whether you are LBTG, sport stripes, have two heads 
or wheels
for feet, believing that the whole matter of sexual orientation 
has nothing
to do with blindness and that there are no synergies between 
sexual
orientation and blindness.  WE do not consider sexual orientation 
our
business.  Thus, we encourage LBTG individuals to join 
organizations whose
province is that group -- that's part of integration into 
society.  But,
being concerned with blindness, we do not consider such issues 
our province
and, in fact, would deem it arrogant to take any positions having 
to do with
sexual orientation, just as we do not take positions on other 
issues.  ACB
does not quite maintain this rigid separation.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
Peter Wolfe
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 2:26 AM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB 
Centers or
Not?

   I'd also point out that entering special interest advocacy 
groups
is not only meant for everyone but not for every time in someones
lives either.  Another thing is that to the best of my knowledge 
the
NFB isn't as inclusive as the ACB towards the LGBTQ umbrella like 
me.
I think this is a statement towards minorities that conform or 
don't
be represented causes jobs are the only thing that counts.  There 
are
other barriers that are incidental that is extra discrimination.  
For
example, I could perhaps be fired in some states for being of my
lifestyle, yet I would have to thread threw whether it was for 
one
reason or the other.  Not that simple, so hollistic viewing 
togetherr
as a team is my philosophy and simply put that I don't find that 
in
the current manifestation with the NFB policies.

On 3/23/13, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com> wrote:
 Justin,
 That's what I've been doing, living my own way, doing things my 
own
 way.  Fleetwood Mac's "Go Your Own Way" is in fact the song that 
popped
 up as I typed that.  You're right that it puts tons of crap on 
one's
 shoulders as well.

 I've already got enough crap on my shoulders without needing 
ANYMORE!

 For example, everytime I tell people I have a Dog they 
automatically
 assume it's a guide Dog.  When I tell them she's an emotional
 support/therapy animal and she's a CockerSpaniel to boot they 
look at
 me as if I've just grown a second head.  If their polite about 
it, I'm
 polite.  If not, I tell them to kiss my bass, only in slightly 
politer
 language.

 On 3/23/13, Peter Wolfe <yogabare13 at gmail.com> wrote:
 Mike and all,

     I can tell you that I tolerate the NFB propaganda cause I 
don't
 truly believe that lots of NFB people truly believe in what they 
are
 told by the NFB.  I also think resources aren't geared for only
 specific groups nor should information be contained for any 
given
 audience but for everyone.  The ingreat thing with the internet 
is that
 it gives mroe freedom, so by that logic that self-empowerment is 
the
 goal not control.  Ultimately trying to control others is vain 
and
 short-sighted cause you will ingender the opposite of what you
 intented like the prohibition on gay marriage causes a taboo 
that
 facilitates  more homosexuality in my view.

     Secondly, I also believe like a below poster that insulation
 doesn't facilitate criticial thinking on any group not even the 
NFB.
 My idea on life is to be open minded with a self-critical eye on 
the
 details and facts not on anecdotes like the former poster as 
well.  I
 can't explain how I feel or think to anybody just can expose you 
to
 other ways of thinking for yourself.  I believe NFB doesn't 
allow for
 independent thought or room for disagreement just in conformity 
like
 recommended cane sizes, autonomous strategies or artificially 
feeling
 that your like the sighted that are not universal facts onto
 hemselves.  Your entitled to the opinions not the facts cause 
that is
 how I view the world.  Truly and sincerely the best thing humans 
can do
 is appreciate and  acknowledge differences as neither positive 
or
 negative just different that is it.  This is my philosophy and 
how I
 live my life cause I believe in Freedom with certain 
restrictions that
 are commonsense.

 sincerely,
 Peter

 On 3/22/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
 I'm afraid that I concur with you that almost *all* lists 
generate far
 more
 heat than light -- unless their moderators clamp down so hard 
that the
 lists
 become boring as hell!

 But I confess to sometimes wondering why some individuals keep 
reading
 our
 lists when they find so much objectionable about us.  And no, 
this is not
 an
 invitation to leave.  It's just an expression, as King Mongkut 
put it in
 "the
 King and I", "is a puzzlement!".

 Mike

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
Desiree
 Oudinot
 Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 9:17 PM
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB 
Centers or
 Not?

 Fair enough, Mike.  I can understand where you're coming from.  
To be
 fair, and none of you guys would know this since you don't know 
me
 personally, I often use that phrase, stepping into the lion's 
den,
 when I sense that a topic is becoming heated.  In my life, I 
have
 rarely witnessed constructive debating or criticism.  I always
 associate disagreement with argument, which is not always the 
case,
 but that's just a bad habit of mine to say that particular 
phrase
 because it is what i've personally felt like more often than 
not.  99%
 of the time, it has absolutely nothing to do with the NFB, but 
with
 other situations that occur in my life.
 Having said that, the incident I spoke of happened a few years 
ago,
 and I have since looked into various things to do with the NFB, 
and
 spoken to several members that I know.  While I do feel that 
several
 things in the NFB's philosophy clash with me, I'm not going to 
drag
 them out on a public list.  There would be no point in that, 
since I've
 already settled my disagreements in my own mind anyhow by 
deciding not
 to join.

 On 3/22/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
 Desiree:

 With respect, although all of us must make generalizations from 
that
 with
 which we have had experience, it would seem just as unfair to 
use such
 loaded phrases as "the lions' den" to describe our discussions 
as it is
 to
 use unexamined the phraseology of NFB propaganda (and I think 
there is
 no
 dishonor in propaganda).

 Mike

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
 Desiree
 Oudinot
 Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 4:27 PM
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB 
Centers
 or
 Not?

 I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any 
support
 from NFB members.  I give you props for willingly entering the 
lion's
 den, though.

 On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
 My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my 
way or
 the highway" mentality.  Despite protestations to the contrary, 
I get
 the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the 
way* of
 understanding and living with blindness.  While the NFB's 
particular
 methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to 
commend
 it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing.  I also 
detect a
 kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is
 unhelpful.  It's one thing to have a like-minded community, but 
I
 sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of superiority 
over
 sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have felt 
distinctly out
 of the loop and out of place at some NFB events because I wasn't
 "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of
 personal history that most other federationists seem to have.  I 
cannot
 use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining the NFB, 
nor
 do I wish to.  As I said previously in this discussion, I am
 uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience.  
This,
 then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably 
explains
 more about me than the Federation.  I hope that helps clarify a 
little.

 On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
 A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, 
but by
 their dedication to the cause.  And a warrior doesn't need to be 
on
 the
 battlefield to prove his worth to society.

 On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
 Be a warrior.  Be on the frong lines.

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
 kelby
 carlson
 Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
 Centers
 or
 Not?

 My perspective is similar to Desiree's.  I have every intention 
of
 getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way.  
However, I
 have reservations about all of the organizations there are.  
(It's
 totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For 
now,
 I
 want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind
 person
 and do what I can individually to help others as well.  There is
 great
 value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where 
that
 isn't how I believe i can best function.  I do hope to attend 
the
 convention one of these years, though, and my mind could 
definitely
 change!

 I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the 
Federation
 at times.  I need to work harder on moderating what I say and 
how I
 say
 it.  But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the 
Federation
 and a great deal that I like and agree with.  Fundamentally, my
 philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB philosophy.  How 
it
 is
 worked out practically is sometimes where the rubber meets the 
road.

 On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
 Hi,
 While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on 
why
 I
 choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
 It's not about having a superiority complex.  I don't consider
 myself
 to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.  
however, I
 like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden
 agendas
 at arm's length.  That's why my involvement only extends as far 
as
 listservs will take it.  I feel that reading messages written by
 individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention
 realistic
 view, of how the members of each organization live, work and
 interact
 in day-to-day life.  At a meeting or convention, there's the
 expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say 
the
 right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases.  
That's
 not
 limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a 
fact
 of
 human nature.  When you draw a large number of like-minded
 individuals
 together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
 proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their
 best
 or worst foot forward collectively.  There is little time for
 individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take
 root
 and stand above the rest.
 I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified 
as
 a
 loner in a lot of ways.  As I said, I think and draw conclusions
 best
 when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to 
speak.
 I
 take what is important to me, what fits in with my values and
 beliefs,
 and apply it to how I live my life.  I don't honestly feel that 
I
 need
 to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor should I be told 
that
 I
 have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront of every high and 
low
 point in the organization's history.  I am content with this, 
and I
 feel that I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a
 viewpoint
 which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable 
expressing
 for fear of being blamed and shamed.

 On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
 Hello, Peter.  I have not followed this thread, but I have 
looked
 at
 one
 or
 two of your posts.  I think it is a shame that you will not join
 the
 American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of the
 Blind.
 I
 suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being
 what
 you
 might call an independent.  Perhaps you are right, but my own 
life
 experience indicates that having influence means joining with
 others
 of
 like
 mind, exploring how you can understand them and get them to
 understand
 you,
 and then acting together in a concerted way to bring about the
 better
 world
 we all say we want.  One popular buzzword you can't help but 
hear
 if
 you
 listen to five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, 
but
 there
 is
 a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want.
 For
 me
 this
 is the National Federation of the Blind.  For others it is the
 American
 Council of the Blind.  Though the organizations may disagree 
from
 time
 to
 time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
 commitment
 to
 blind people that extends beyond words.  We are willing to put 
our
 time,
 our
 energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you
 appreciate
 that
 we do so or ever raise a finger to help us.  Much distance 
remains
 for
 us
 to
 travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars.
 Thanks
 for
 reading.

 -----Original Message-----
 From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
 Peter
 Wolfe
 Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
 Centers
 or
 Not?

     In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
 improvization
 not
 technique persay.  It doesn't matter where you get any 
information
 from
 on
 these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's Club's or wherever as
 long
 as
 you
 get whatever information.  Make-up yoru own techniques and sell 
a
 book
 for
 all I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts.  
I
 could
 careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
 individuals
 that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest
 group
 that
 your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with 
a
 rotten
 situation to make it better.  By the way, I'm never going to be
 part
 of
 NFB,
 ACB, AFB or any of them.

 sincerely,
 Peter

 On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
 Kelby,

 Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive 
answer.
 I
 can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
 centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and 
have
 generally managed my life successfully.  However, in the work I
 have
 done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I
 missed
 when I was trained.  I think I have picked up much of what I
 missed
 primarily because of my association with others in the
 Federation.
 It
 has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations
 and
 knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly
 how
 at
 the start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane
 left
 and right.  In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it
 has
 less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel skills and
 more
 to do with whether one actually gets out and travels.  These are
 not
 easy things to measure.

 I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
 past,
 but I don't know how well you travel, for example.  What I do
 know
 is
 that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that
 surround
 us
 in a way that is hard to measure.  Even though we have some idea
 of
 what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally 
confident,
 we
 are going to tend to believe it if we are uncertain how we would
 accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we can't do it.  I
 believe there was a time when there was a clear dividing line
 between
 NFB training centers and many other centers.  We believed that 
we
 have
 to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most
 other
 centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching
 techniques.
 The common belief among some other centers was that changing
 attitudes
 toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of
 their
 mandate.

 Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
 there
 is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in
 oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some
 of
 the
 lines are not as clear as they once were.  Still, I am skeptical
 of
 how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
 course, it depends some upon the starting point of the
 individual.

 It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
 all
 good travelers.  The person making the observation, who shall
 remain
 nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but
 there
 were too many people to try to help all at once.
 However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
 were
 getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that 
what
 appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not 
the
 case
 for the traveler.  This isn't meant to diminish the role of good
 travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to
 travel
 than techniques.  Having said all this, though, I also believe
 that
 what we have come to call structured discovery is a valid
 difference
 in how one learns to travel.  In some ways, it takes longer to
 learn
 but provides a better base from which to work.  Some of us who
 did
 not
 attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on our 
own
 to
 some degree, but we would probably have adopted it more easily
 having
 had training in an NFB center.

 I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
 Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have 
taken.
 Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to
 be
 more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons 
for
 positions we might have taken.  I won't bore you with the 
details
 of
 the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed myself to be
 talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be 
available
 for
 close to an hour, and how the airline employee refused to tell 
me
 which gate I needed to get to.  Anyway, some of what you are
 hearing
 here would have been a part of your training at an NFB Center.
 You
 would likely have been given the chance to interact personally
 with
 people who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
 questions.  You can get some of this information here, of 
course,
 but
 what about the many experiences that are not discussed?

 Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
 another.
 My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, 
because
 it
 might be all right.  I feel pretty certain that there are things
 you
 didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent time in one
 of
 our
 centers as indicated above, but I don't really think that is the
 point.  The point is how can we help you now and how can you 
help
 us
 and other blind people?  Are there things you are not 
comfortable
 doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable doing?  We
 could
 even explore here some of the things that many of us have
 overcome
 as
 a result of the encouragement from others.

 Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly
 as
 I
 see them, isn't that always true?  In the end, though, I don't
 care
 that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
 centers or not.  I care more that you have what you need to get 
a
 job
 when you get out of college and that you are able to live as 
full
 a
 life as you can live, and I believe there are ways we can help
 you
 do
 that.

 Best regards,

 Steve Jacobson

 On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:

I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
 federationists-that
 my
local training simply must have been far, far inferior to
 anything
 the
NFB has.  I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for
 this
claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me
 convincing
reasons as to why the training I have is bad.  (Those who don't
 know
me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If
 NFB
mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people
 interested
 to
pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology
 in
real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to
 nine
months.

Kelby

 ----- Original Message -----
From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
 21
Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario

Well we all need good mobility skills.  A dog is not a
 replacement
 for
mobility skills.  Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a
 guide
dog.
If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
 locally
then you don't know what you are missing.
Never going to them myself.  I have seen what someone with no
knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
 areas,
and come back from our schools with the confidence and the
 mobility
and the other services that are given there.
If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
 then
 a
dog.  I have not been blind all my life.  I lost my vision as an
adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
 know
when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do
 so.
Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
 mention
when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not
 want
to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog,
 or
whatever the issues are.  That I know the skills to get me where
 I
want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
Have a great night all.
Take care and god bless.
Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
 to
one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism

Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the
 Way
 in
Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
 Advocate!Cheryl
Echevarria,
Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
 for
the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
 resources.
Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
 2013
and vacation must be traveled no later than
12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
 and
friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
 affiliate
as well.  You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just
 book
through us.

 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
 To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
 Scenario

 I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that
 much
time for mobility training I already had purely for the  purpose
 of
getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
 straightaway.

 Kelby

  ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
 To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org  Date sent:
 Thu,
21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
 Scenario

 When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
 real
 lack of quality training for blind people.  I don't really think
 that's the case with guide schools.  There are some schools
 which
 do
 things differently from others.  But, there are people who
 prefer
 one
 approach over another.  I don't really think that NFB needs to
 get
 involved with guide dog training.

 As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
 nine
month NFB  center training, first, this will severely limit the
 number
of  people  choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog
 school,
should  one be  started.  I don't know to many people who can
 give
 up
a year of  their life  to get a guide dog.

 Cindy

 -----Original Message-----
 From: Peter Donahue
 Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List
 Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario

 Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
     Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
past so she  knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her
 comments
below I'd  like to  suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run
 guide
dog program:

         Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
centers for  blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
facility for  housing  students in training to be constructed.
 Hold
on folks.
Students
 wishing to
 obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
complete the
 6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's
"Bootcamp  training" the center has an opportunity to come to
 know
 the
student  inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of
 background
information on the  applicant to the guide dog unit.  Unlike
 current
guide dog  programs that must  rely on references and other
information that may be true or  false the NFB  guide dog program
 will
have all ready had accurate information  gathered for  them by
 the
training center and can be assured that the applicant  is a
 suitable
candidate for a dog.

     This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
 the
student is  up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
transferring  them to the  use of a dog.  Students that
 successfully
complete the cane  travel component  of their immersion training
 would
be eligible to receive a dog.
 This
 approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
other  aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
 time
students  often experience when at guide dog training facilities.

     Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
 to
 wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes
 and
 participating in designated center activities.  Like students
 who
 undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training
 with
 dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to
 completion
 of the training.  In the beginning they could be accompanied by
 an
 experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to
 travel
 and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their
 dogs.

     As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
 operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.  The
 program
 would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs
 from
 donations.  The usual period of socialization and puppy raising
 wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide
 dog
 programs.  The dogs would return for a period of training when
 they're taught how to guide a blind person.  Once the dogs are
 ready
 to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
 instructor would be sent to the center where the student
 receiving
 the dog will be trained.  Alternatively the NFB guide dog
 program
 could operate from one of our centers.  Those wishing to obtain
 dogs
 once their "Bootcamp"
 training is complete would transfer to that center for training
 with
 the dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house students
 in
 training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.

     The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
 guide
 dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
 ideas.  If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at
 a
 cost of 0 to participants.  All the best.

 Peter Donahue

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
 To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup

 I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I
would  like to see a more in depth background investigation of
 the
blind  applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require more
references, ask  the neighbors...whatever it takes.  Adoption
 agencies
place  children  into homes surely we can figure out a way to
 more
accurately know  what  sort of situation the dog will be placed
 into.
Secondly, I think  there  are already agencies in place for
 dealing
with animal abuse, the  police  and animal control.  I don't see
 any
reason why these agencies  can't be  used in cases of neglect or
abuse.

 In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
 the
dog  in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
 point.
We
 have
 to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing
 Eye's
concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost had
increased  over the years with the cost of living.  It has been
 $150
since  the  beginning of the school in 1928.  I think that's the
 right
year.
 $150
 was a very different sum of money then and now.

 I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
 substantially lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at
 the
 various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to
 train
 a dog, the numbers vary widely.  All those buildings, fancy
 food,
 excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.

 Julie

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 e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
 "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
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 Peter Q Wolfe
 "Stand up for your rights"
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 e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
 "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for 
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 "Stand up for your rights"
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"If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for 
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Peter Q Wolfe
"Stand up for your rights"
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