[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?

Sat Mar 23 23:35:22 UTC 2013

Mike,


    What about those restless soles who don't believe in disjunctive
choices? Meaning that I'm not an either or person nor are lots who
fall between the gaps of either group. The only annalogy to say is
that NFB comes across as conservative and ACB as liberal and some of
us believe it or not don't believe in either or of the propositions. I
don't believe that blind people can do everything nor are equal in the
eyes of the law or in capacity nor do I believe that we're exactly
victims either. Hard to explain just wouold like to see more
networking of information between all organizations to share
information than they are today. Freeing up choices allows sideliners
to perhaps make  up our own minds and perhaps an independent group.

On 3/23/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> I agree with Gary completely. I wish I'd written what he writes below. We
> know what works for us and we believe -- yes, believe -- that the
> probability is pretty good that the methods we espouse will work for most
> blind persons. But anyone who says he/she absolutely knows *the* truth
> about
> anything is deluded.
>
> In fact, I have told a few people that they are welcome to join us but
> might
> not be totally comfortable with us so they should try out both NFB and ACB
> and make their own decisions.
>
> However, I do not feel obligated to blow ACB's horn anymore than ACB feels
> obligated to blow ours.
>
> As Mao once put it: "Let a hundred flowers bloom. Let a hundred schools of
> thought contend." I can assure you, however, that the results of
> interaction
> with us here and elsewhere with that admonition in mind are far more
> positive than they were when he said this -- nobody gets placed in the
> gulag
> for expressing himself/herself. :-)
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary
> Wunder
> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 1:47 PM
> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> Not?
>
> Hello, Kelby.  I appreciate your honesty and the fact that you are talking
> about feelings rather than making accusations.
>
> There are comments which are sometimes made in the NFB that make me
> uncomfortable.  I do not think we know the truth about blindness.  It is a
> nice statement, but it is too overarching for me to embrace.  I think we
> know some truths about blindness that make sense.  I think we know that
> good
> training can make a tremendous difference in how people function in the
> world.  I think we know that it makes sense for society to support
> rehabilitation programs that lead to our education and employment.  I think
> we know that it makes sense to carry a cane that is long enough to tell you
> there is a poll or a sign in your path before you actually come in contact
> with it. I think we know that being literate is helpful in the information
> society and that this issue must be addressed so that many blind people
> have
> opportunity. I think we know that an important element of changing
> attitudes
> about blindness comes from interacting with and collectively addressing the
> misconceptions that cause a social worker to say there is no way she can,
> in
> good conscience, place a frail little infant in the care of two blind
> people
> unless they can guarantee her they will have 24x7 sighted assistance.
>
> I can't think of one person who believes that they are superior by virtue
> of
> the fact that they are blind.  I can, however, think of a number of people
> who believe they are inferior because they once had sight and no longer do.
> I do believe that there are times when people react so strongly to the
> notion that we are broken human beings that they make it sound as though we
> are somehow special or superior, but I think this has more to do with
> changing the underlying assumptions of our discussions than it does a true
> sense of superiority.
>
> I am glad you are part of this list, whether or not you decide to join the
> national Federation of the blind.  I feel the same way about Desiree.  I
> welcome the opportunity to exchange points of view, and I do not consider
> it
> a failure of communication if I failed to change your mind or you failed to
> change mine.  As long as we can communicate civilly and actually try to
> understand what the other person is saying, I think this kind of
> conversation is very worthwhile.
>
> Warmly,
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
> carlson
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:51 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> Not?
>
> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or the
> highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get the
> distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* of
> understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's particular
> methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to commend
> it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also detect a kind
> of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is unhelpful. It's
> one thing to have a like-minded community, but I sometimes feel as if there
> is a kind of feeling of superiority over sighted people--or even
> non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out of the loop and out of place
> at some NFB events because I wasn't "plugged in", didn't know the lingo,
> and
> didn't have the kind of personal history that most other federationists
> seem
> to have. I cannot use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining
> the NFB, nor do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am
> uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience. This, then, is
> not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains more about me
> than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
>
>
>
> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on the
>> battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>
>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Be a warrior.  Be on the frong lines.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> kelby carlson
>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>> or Not?
>>>
>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now,
>>> I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind
>>> person and do what I can individually to help others as well. There
>>> is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where
>>> that isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to attend the
>>> convention one of these years, though, and my mind could definitely
>>> change!
>>>
>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation
>>> at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I
>>> say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the
>>> Federation and a great deal that I like and agree with.
>>> Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB
>>> philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes where the
> rubber meets the road.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why I
>>>> choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider myself
>>>> to be better than anyone who is part of an organization. however, I
>>>> like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden agendas
>>>> at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far as
>>>> listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
>>>> individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention realistic
>>>> view, of how the members of each organization live, work and
>>>> interact in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention, there's the
>>>> expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say the
>>>> right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not
>>>> limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact
>>>> of human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded
>>>> individuals together, and get them all to focus on one specific
>>>> problem, proposition, or what have you, the people will either put
>>>> their best or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time
>>>> for individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take
>>>> root and stand above the rest.
>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as
>>>> a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions
>>>> best when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to
>>>> speak. I take what is important to me, what fits in with my values
>>>> and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly
>>>> feel that I need to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor
>>>> should I be told that I have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront
>>>> of every high and low point in the organization's history. I am
>>>> content with this, and I feel that I have a right to speak out about
>>>> it, since it's a viewpoint which most who hold it would probably not
>>>> be comfortable expressing for fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> Hello, Peter.  I have not followed this thread, but I have looked
>>>>> at one or two of your posts.  I think it is a shame that you will
>>>>> not join the American Council of the Blind or the National
>>>>> Federation of the Blind.
>>>>> I
>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being what
>>>>> you might call an independent.  Perhaps you are right, but my own
>>>>> life experience indicates that having influence means joining with
>>>>> others of like mind, exploring how you can understand them and get
>>>>> them to understand you, and then acting together in a concerted way
>>>>> to bring about the better world we all say we want.  One popular
>>>>> buzzword you can't help but hear if you listen to five minutes of
>>>>> the news is the word infrastructure, but there is a lot to be said
>>>>> for having a way to effect the change we want.  For me this is the
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind.  For others it is the American
>>>>> Council of the Blind.  Though the organizations may disagree from
>>>>> time to time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
>>>>> commitment to blind people that extends beyond words.  We are
>>>>> willing to put our time, our energy, and our money into helping
>>>>> you, whether or not you appreciate that we do so or ever raise a
>>>>> finger to help us. Much distance remains for us to travel, and we
>>>>> certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks for reading.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Peter Wolfe
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>
>>>>>     In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get
>>>>> any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's
>>>>> Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever information. Make-up
>>>>> yoru own techniques and sell a book for all I care as long as it
>>>>> works for you that is all that counts. I could careless as logn as
>>>>> you share the information with fellow blind individuals that is my
>>>>> thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest group that
>>>>> your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with a
>>>>> rotten situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going to
>>>>> be part of NFB, ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
>>>>>> I can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
>>>>>> centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>>>>>> generally managed my life successfully.  However, in the work I
>>>>>> have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I
>>>>>> missed when I was trained.  I think I have picked up much of what
>>>>>> I missed primarily because of my association with others in the
>>>>>> Federation.  It has more to do with being confident enough to try
>>>>>> new situations and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I
>>>>>> don't know exactly how at the start, and less to do with how many
>>>>>> inches I swing my cane left and right.  In my opinion, and you may
>>>>>> see this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the
>>>>>> quality of one's travel skills and more to do with whether one
>>>>>> actually gets out and travels.  These are not easy things to measure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example.  What I
>>>>>> do know is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes
>>>>>> that surround us in a way that is hard to measure.  Even though we
>>>>>> have some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are
>>>>>> exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe it if we
>>>>>> are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and someone
>>>>>> tells us we can't do it.  I believe there was a time when there
>>>>>> was a clear dividing line between NFB training centers and many
>>>>>> other centers.  We believed that we have to affect one's attitude
>>>>>> toward blindness and oneself while most other centers believed that
> they need to concentrate on teaching techniques.
>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief
>>>>>> in oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some
>>>>>> of the lines are not as clear as they once were.  Still, I am
>>>>>> skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of
>>>>>> months, but of course, it depends some upon the starting point of the
> individual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
>>>>>> all good travelers.  The person making the observation, who shall
>>>>>> remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help
>>>>>> but there were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
>>>>>> were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that
>>>>>> what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not
>>>>>> the case for the traveler.  This isn't meant to diminish the role
>>>>>> of good travel techniques, only to make the point that there is
>>>>>> more to travel than techniques.  Having said all this, though, I
>>>>>> also believe that what we have come to call structured discovery
>>>>>> is a valid difference in how one learns to travel.  In some ways,
>>>>>> it takes longer to learn but provides a better base from which to
>>>>>> work.  Some of us who did not attend NFB training centers have
>>>>>> adopted this approach on our own to some degree, but we would
>>>>>> probably have adopted it more easily having had training in an NFB
> center.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to
>>>>>> be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons
>>>>>> for positions we might have taken.  I won't bore you with the
>>>>>> details of the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed
>>>>>> myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not
>>>>>> be available for close to an hour, and how the airline employee
>>>>>> refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to.  Anyway, some of
>>>>>> what you are hearing here would have been a part of your training
>>>>>> at an NFB Center.  You would likely have been given the chance to
>>>>>> interact personally with people who had similar experiences so
>>>>>> that you could ask them questions.  You can get some of this
>>>>>> information here, of course, but what about the many experiences that
> are not discussed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.
>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because
>>>>>> it might be all right.  I feel pretty certain that there are
>>>>>> things you didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent
>>>>>> time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I don't really
>>>>>> think that is the point.  The point is how can we help you now and
>>>>>> how can you help us and other blind people?  Are there things you
>>>>>> are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone else here is
>>>>>> comfortable doing?  We could even explore here some of the things
>>>>>> that many of us have overcome as a result of the encouragement from
> others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as
>>>>>> I see them, isn't that always true?  In the end, though, I don't
>>>>>> care that much whether you believe there is a difference in
>>>>>> training centers or not.  I care more that you have what you need
>>>>>> to get a job when you get out of college and that you are able to
>>>>>> live as full a life as you can live, and I believe there are ways
>>>>>> we can help you do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that
>>>>>>>my local training simply must have been far, far inferior to
>>>>>>>anything the NFB has.  I have as of yet seen no actual compelling
>>>>>>>evidence for this claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has
>>>>>>>offered me convincing reasons as to why the training I have is
>>>>>>>bad.  (Those who don't know me can't offer any reasons, as they
>>>>>>>don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so wonderful, I wish
>>>>>>>they would allow people interested to pay for a little instruction
>>>>>>>to get a sense of their methodology in real space time rather than
>>>>>>>forcing people to commit to six to nine months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Kelby
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills.  A dog is not a replacement
>>>>>>>for mobility skills.  Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a
>>>>>>>guide dog.
>>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>Never going to them myself.  I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
>>>>>>>areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and the
>>>>>>>mobility and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then
>>>>>>>a dog.  I have not been blind all my life.  I lost my vision as an
>>>>>>>adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
>>>>>>>know when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do
> so.
>>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
>>>>>>>either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in
>>>>>>>between a dog, or whatever the issues are.  That I know the skills
>>>>>>>to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
>>>>>>>to one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way
>>>>>>>in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
>>>>>>>Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
>>>>>>>for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
> resources.
>>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
>>>>>>>2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>>>>>>friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>>>>affiliate as well.  You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org,
>>>>>>>just book through us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
>>>>>>>purpose of getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
> straightaway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org  Date sent:
>>>>>>>Thu,
>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>>>>>>> real lack of quality training for blind people.  I don't really
>>>>>>> think that's the case with guide schools.  There are some schools
>>>>>>> which do things differently from others.  But, there are people
>>>>>>> who prefer one approach over another.  I don't really think that
>>>>>>> NFB needs to get involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>>>>>>month NFB  center training, first, this will severely limit the
>>>>>>>number of  people  choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog
>>>>>>>school, should  one be  started.  I don't know to many people who
>>>>>>>can give up a year of  their life  to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>     Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>>>past so she  knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her
>>>>>>>comments below I'd  like to  suggest a possible scenario for an
>>>>>>>NFB-run guide dog program:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>>centers for  blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>>>facility for  housing  students in training to be constructed.
>>>>>>>Hold on folks.
>>>>>>>Students
>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>complete the
>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's
>>>>>>>"Bootcamp  training" the center has an opportunity to come to know
>>>>>>>the student  inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of
>>>>>>>background information on the  applicant to the guide dog unit.
>>>>>>>Unlike current guide dog  programs that must  rely on references
>>>>>>>and other information that may be true or  false the NFB  guide
>>>>>>>dog program will have all ready had accurate information  gathered
>>>>>>>for  them by the training center and can be assured that the
>>>>>>>applicant  is a  suitable candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>>>>>>student is  up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>>>>>>transferring  them to the  use of a dog.  Students that
>>>>>>>successfully complete the cane  travel component  of their
>>>>>>>immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>>other  aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
>>>>>>>time students  often experience when at guide dog training
>>>>>>> facilities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
>>>>>>> to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes
>>>>>>> and participating in designated center activities.  Like students
>>>>>>> who undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training
>>>>>>> with dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to
>>>>>>> completion of the training.  In the beginning they could be
>>>>>>> accompanied by an experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be
>>>>>>> expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their
> own using their dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.  The
>>>>>>> program would operate its own breeding component or obtain
>>>>>>> suitable dogs from donations.  The usual period of socialization
>>>>>>> and puppy raising wouldn't be that much different than is done by
>>>>>>> current guide dog programs.  The dogs would return for a period
>>>>>>> of training when they're taught how to guide a blind person.
>>>>>>> Once the dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind owner
>>>>>>> they along with an instructor would be sent to the center where
>>>>>>> the student receiving the dog will be trained.  Alternatively the
>>>>>>> NFB guide dog program could operate from one of our centers.
>>>>>>> Those wishing to obtain dogs once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>>>>>> with the dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house
>>>>>>> students in training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide
> dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>>>>>> guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have
>>>>>>> additional ideas.  If it's to happen at all the discussion must
>>>>>>> continue at a cost of 0 to participants.  All the best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I
>>>>>>>would  like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>>>>>>blind  applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require more
>>>>>>>references, ask  the neighbors...whatever it takes.  Adoption
>>>>>>>agencies place  children  into homes surely we can figure out a
>>>>>>>way to more accurately know  what  sort of situation the dog will be
> placed into.
>>>>>>>Secondly, I think  there  are already agencies in place for
>>>>>>>dealing with animal abuse, the  police  and animal control.  I
>>>>>>>don't see any reason why these agencies  can't be  used in cases
>>>>>>>of neglect or abuse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>>>>>>the dog  in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
>>>>>>> point.
>>>>>>>We
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing
>>>>>>>Eye's concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost
>>>>>>>had increased  over the years with the cost of living.  It has
>>>>>>>been $150 since  the  beginning of the school in 1928.  I think
>>>>>>>that's the right year.
>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at
>>>>>>> the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs
>>>>>>> to train a dog, the numbers vary widely.  All those buildings,
>>>>>>> fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%4
>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40
>>>>>>> verizon.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlso
>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cherylandma
>>>>>>>xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlso
>>>>>>>n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobs
>>>>>>>on%4
>>>>>>>0visi.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/yogabare13%4
>>>>>> 0gma
>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>> anything"
>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earth
>>> link.ne
>>>>> t
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>> com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40
>>> gmail.c
>>> om
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/justin.williams
>>> 2%40gma
>>> il.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%4
>>> 0gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40g
>> mail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.ne
> t
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/yogabare13%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Cordially,
Peter Q Wolfe, BA
cum laude Auburn University
e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
"If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for anything"
Peter Q Wolfe
"Stand up for your rights"
Bob Marley