[Blindtlk] liveral vs conservative was Adjustment to BlindnessTraining, NFB Centers or Not?
Gary Wunder
gwunder at earthlink.net
Wed Mar 27 00:41:36 UTC 2013
Wow, Mark. I wish I had said that.
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark Tardif
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:04 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] liveral vs conservative was Adjustment to
BlindnessTraining, NFB Centers or Not?
Julie,
That is a perfectly reasonable question, no, you are not a huge dork at all.
I think one could write a book about what is meant by those terms, because
sometimes different people mean different things by them. Plus, you have
people who are considered liberal on economic issues, but more conservative
on social or moral issues. I think your example above regarding the
strictness of parents is a good example of liberal versus conservative on a
personal level. Generally, my sense is that a conservative wants either to
leave things as they are or turn back the clock, so to speak, to good
old-fashioned market capitalistic economy, in which the government does
relatively little to help the average person economically and government
budgets are cut in those areas, whereas a liberal might want greater
spending on social and economic programs, such as the Obama economic
stimulus program, for example. Conservatives would say that if you let the
market do its work, the way we used to before New Deal programs, jobs will
be created, more people will eventually be hired, taxes can be lowered, and
government won't interfere as much with business activity. On social
issues, such as crime and punishment, liberals, as a rule, would tend to be
less likely to favor things like capital punishment and would want the
prison system to not only punish but to rehabilitate the criminal, whereas
conservatives would generally want prison sentences to be stricter and
longer, and perhaps greater use of capital punishment. This is a very
simple explanation, but to complicate it more, a lot of people cannot be
classified as liberal or conservative, but they decide what stance they will
take based on the specific issue. I am not sure regarding blindness issues
how this would work. I think many of us in the NFB would want blind people
to work harder at finding employment so as to be less reliant on the
governmental programs, which might sound conservative, but we also want
government to provide more insentives for people to seek employment and do
what it can to fight discrimination, which sounds more liberal. So, it's
hard to say, and, as has been said before, the NFB is a big cross-section of
people, some of whom are liberal on various issues and others who are more
conservative on these same issues. I hope that helps.
Mark Tardif
Nuclear arms will not hold you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Julie J.
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 10:06 AM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] liveral vs conservative was Adjustment to
BlindnessTraining, NFB Centers or Not?
At the risk of looking like a huge dork, could someone explain to me what
exactly is meant by the terms liberal, moderate and conservative. I rarely
watch TV, but on the occasions where I catch the news I hear these terms
used a lot. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I'm not sure what exactly they
mean, other than some sort of political designation like democrat or
republican.
along the lines of my ignorance are there examples of blindness issues and
what the corresponding groups would say about each? I'm assuming each group
has some sort of philosophy or guidelines that determine their stance on
each issue.
When I think of liberal and conservative, I think of parents who allow their
kids to swear and dye their hair blue (liberal) or parents who insist on
clothes that cover up the important bits and being at the table for family
dinner (conservative). I don't think this is what everyone else thinks of
when the terms liberal and conservative are used! *smile*
Thanks!
Julie
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Wolfe
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 8:40 AM
To: gwunder at earthlink.net ; Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
Gary,
I guess that my feelings stem from the agressive push towards employment
without putting other things into consideration. The emphasis of
self-sufficiency reminds me to often of blaming yourself for failures in
institutions, past greviances or inate discrimination individually not the
individual. I'd like to remark that I've met only one liberal in the NFB in
person out of countless NFB participants of NFB who've known me or known of
me.
Using your analogy of the food stamp program is kind of an ironic
example though on our conversation. What I'm talking about is providing
access to equal services for all opportunities including charities,
government, other nonprofits or the private sector even to aid all blind
people. I sincerely believe that this challenge isn't being confronted for
the blind nor are we agressive individually in championing our rights as
humans too. However, what I'm talking about is things that not dealt with
prior to blindness can alter your normal direction for vocational success or
in general rehab like psychological counseling, medical care, academics or
etc. What I'm also referring to is personal rehabilitation even before blind
rehabilitation sometimes can help cause that grows confidense and
self-esteem that affects the other areas. Realize that some blind people
have multiple disabilities like me, so we need to work with more disabled
groups in this arena and them likewise. I'm a collectivist hippee so think
together we're much stronger than we're apart on most things of import.
Realizing this that I don't think you can isolate blindness from your past
or your mental state or physical well being that all manifest into your
overall health that should be the focus is stability, then rehabilitation
and success.
sincerely,
Peter
On 3/25/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hello, Peter. I can tell you that in the Missouri affiliate I would
> get a large number of cheers and boos were I to talk about the Iraq war,
Pres.
> Obama, his health care proposal, taxes, the safety net, federal
> control of education, abortion, prenatal testing, sexual orientation,
> the right to die, physician-assisted suicide, and many other hot
> button issues. The NFB is not a homogenous group. It is not that we
> believe blind people to be one dimensional. We understand that, in
> addition to blindness, people who come to sit with us at chapter
> meetings have all kinds of wants, needs, and abilities. We work hard
> to keep our chapter and affiliate discussions focused on those things
> which unite us as blind people. We assume that dedicated Democrats
> will sign up and support the candidates they like, that Republicans
> will do likewise, and that the independents will search for a
> candidate they can support. We assume that each group will avoid using
> our chapter meetings to support their causes and will instead discuss
> only those issues where we can hope to find unity leading to action.
>
> I have no idea in our affiliate how many people we have who are
> conservative, moderate, or liberal. Although I know how these labels
> are used, I don't really know what they mean and, truth be told, I
> don't think they mean much of anything. Ideology must always take
> second place to thinking about specific issues, and I am afraid that
> ideology all too often takes second place to selfishness. I know a
> man who hates the food stamp program because he believes it gives
> benefits predominately to people of one race. You can show him the
> statistics, but it doesn't change his mind. He hates the abuse that he
> knows goes on in the program, but when he has the chance to buy food
> stamps at a cash value that is less than what they are worth, he
> purchases them. His logic is that if he doesn't do it someone else
> will. You see, I am now beginning to stray off into areas that have
> nothing to do with blindness. My apology.
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> Wolfe
> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 6:40 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
> or Not?
>
> I'm astonished cause the vast number of NFB members who I met are
> definitely conservative. The vast number of ACB members throughout the
> U.S are moderate to liberal democrats that is just my opinion. The
> whole moto of NFB has an affect that if one person who's blind can do
> it that all blind people can do it or should do it. The one size fit
> mantra is personal responsibility that rubs me the wrong way. Lots of
> other things go into a persons success, so feel like they are
> inadaquately addressed by the NFB.
>
> On 3/23/13, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>> Hey, if that proves anything, it proves that the NFB is indeed a
>> cross section of society-a point of which we should be fiercely prowd.
>>
>>
>> Sent from my mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the
>> blind built-in!
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>>
>> On Mar 23, 2013, at 4:12 PM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>> You're right, I won't be anytime soon Ray. Smile.
>>>
>>> Only, I am a liberal, not a conservative like a few have come out
>>> the list as. Lol.
>>>
>>> On 3/23/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Hello, Kelby. I appreciate your honesty and the fact that you are
>>>> talking about feelings rather than making accusations.
>>>>
>>>> There are comments which are sometimes made in the NFB that make me
>>>> uncomfortable. I do not think we know the truth about blindness.
>>>> It is a nice statement, but it is too overarching for me to embrace.
>>>> I think we know some truths about blindness that make sense. I
>>>> think we know that good training can make a tremendous difference
>>>> in how people function in the world. I think we know that it makes
>>>> sense for society to support rehabilitation programs that lead to
>>>> our education and employment. I think we know that it makes sense
>>>> to carry a cane that is long enough to tell you there is a poll or
>>>> a sign in your path before you actually come in contact with it. I
>>>> think we know that being literate is helpful in the information
>>>> society and that this issue must be addressed so that many blind
>>>> people have opportunity. I think we know that an important element
>>>> of changing attitudes about blindness comes from interacting with
>>>> and collectively addressing the misconceptions that cause a social
>>>> worker to say there is no way she can, in good conscience, place a
>>>> frail little infant in the care of two blind people unless they can
>>>> guarantee her they will have 24x7 sighted assistance.
>>>>
>>>> I can't think of one person who believes that they are superior by
>>>> virtue of the fact that they are blind. I can, however, think of a
>>>> number of people who believe they are inferior because they once
>>>> had sight and no longer do.
>>>> I do believe that there are times when people react so strongly to
>>>> the notion that we are broken human beings that they make it sound
>>>> as though we are somehow special or superior, but I think this has
>>>> more to do with changing the underlying assumptions of our
>>>> discussions than it does a true sense of superiority.
>>>>
>>>> I am glad you are part of this list, whether or not you decide to
>>>> join the national Federation of the blind. I feel the same way
>>>> about Desiree. I welcome the opportunity to exchange points of
>>>> view, and I do not consider it a failure of communication if I
>>>> failed to change your mind or you failed to change mine. As long
>>>> as we can communicate civilly and actually try to understand what
>>>> the other person is saying, I think this kind of conversation is
>>>> very worthwhile.
>>>>
>>>> Warmly,
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> kelby carlson
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:51 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>
>>>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way
>>>> or the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I
>>>> get the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the
>>>> way* of understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's
>>>> particular methodology may work for some people--and has a good
>>>> deal to commend it--it's just not something I'm comfortable
>>>> embracing. I also detect a kind of insularity--a constant "looking
>>>> in" if you will--that is unhelpful.
>>>> It's
>>>> one thing to have a like-minded community, but I sometimes feel as
>>>> if there is a kind of feeling of superiority over sighted
>>>> people--or even non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out of
>>>> the loop and out of place at some NFB events because I wasn't
>>>> "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of
>>>> personal history that most other federationists seem to have. I
>>>> cannot use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining the
>>>> NFB, nor do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I
>>>> am uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience.
>>>> This, then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably
>>>> explains more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a
little.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but
>>>>> by their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be
>>>>> on the battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> kelby carlson
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However,
>>>>>> I have reservations about all of the organizations there are.
>>>>>> (It's totally possible those reservations will go away some day.)
>>>>>> For now, I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as
>>>>>> a blind person and do what I can individually to help others as
>>>>>> well. There is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just
>>>>>> at a place where that isn't how I believe i can best function. I
>>>>>> do hope to attend the convention one of these years, though, and
>>>>>> my mind could definitely change!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the
>>>>>> Federation at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I
>>>>>> say and how I say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of
>>>>>> value in the Federation and a great deal that I like and agree with.
>>>>>> Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB
>>>>>> philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes where
>>>>>> the
>>>> rubber meets the road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on
>>>>>>> why I choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider
>>>>>>> myself to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
>>>>>>> however, I like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and
>>>>>>> hidden agendas at arm's length. That's why my involvement only
>>>>>>> extends as far as listservs will take it. I feel that reading
>>>>>>> messages written by individual members is a much more unbiased,
>>>>>>> not to mention realistic view, of how the members of each
>>>>>>> organization live, work and interact in day-to-day life. At a
>>>>>>> meeting or convention, there's the expectation that one must
>>>>>>> carry themselves a certain way, say the right things, be
>>>>>>> inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not limited to
>>>>>>> organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of
>>>>>>> human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded
>>>>>>> individuals together, and get them all to focus on one specific
>>>>>>> problem, proposition, or what have you, the people will either
>>>>>>> put their best or worst foot forward collectively. There is
>>>>>>> little time for individual thought processes, emotions, or
>>>>>>> personalities to take root
> and stand above the rest.
>>>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified
>>>>>>> as a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw
>>>>>>> conclusions best when there are no distractions, no bells and
>>>>>>> whistles so to speak. I take what is important to me, what fits
>>>>>>> in with my values and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my
>>>>>>> life. I don't honestly feel that I need to belong to anything to
>>>>>>> find my purpose, nor should I be told that I have no purpose
>>>>>>> unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low point in the
>>>>>>> organization's history. I am content with this, and I feel that
>>>>>>> I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint
>>>>>>> which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable
>>>>>>> expressing for
> fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have
>>>>>>>> looked at one or two of your posts. I think it is a shame that
>>>>>>>> you will not join the American Council of the Blind or the
>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being
>>>>>>>> what you might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but
>>>>>>>> my own life experience indicates that having influence means
>>>>>>>> joining with others of like mind, exploring how you can
>>>>>>>> understand them and get them to understand you, and then acting
>>>>>>>> together in a concerted way to bring about the better world we
>>>>>>>> all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help but hear
>>>>>>>> if you listen to five minutes of the news is the word
>>>>>>>> infrastructure, but there is a lot to be said for having a way
>>>>>>>> to effect the change we want. For me this is the National
>>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind. For others it is the American Council
>>>>>>>> of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from time
>>>>>>>> to time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
>>>>>>>> commitment to blind people that extends beyond words. We are
>>>>>>>> willing to put our time, our energy, and our money into helping
>>>>>>>> you, whether or not you appreciate that we do so or ever raise
>>>>>>>> a finger to help us. Much distance remains for us to travel,
>>>>>>>> and we
> certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks for reading.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Peter Wolfe
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you
>>>>>>>> get any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB,
>>>>>>>> Lion's Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever
>>>>>>>> information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book for
>>>>>>>> all I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts.
>>>>>>>> I could careless as logn as you share the information with
>>>>>>>> fellow blind individuals that is my thhing that it shouldn't
>>>>>>>> matter what special interest group that your apart of cause we
>>>>>>>> should all work together in dealing with a rotten situation to
>>>>>>>> make it better. By the way, I'm never going to be part of NFB,
>>>>>>>> ACB, AFB or
> any of them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
>>>>>>>>> I can only tell you that I received training before there were
>>>>>>>>> NFB centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler
>>>>>>>>> and have generally managed my life successfully. However, in
>>>>>>>>> the work I have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there
>>>>>>>>> are things I missed when I was trained. I think I have picked
>>>>>>>>> up much of what I missed primarily because of my association
>>>>>>>>> with others in the Federation. It has more to do with being
>>>>>>>>> confident enough to try new situations and knowing that I'll
>>>>>>>>> figure them out even if I don't know exactly how at the start,
>>>>>>>>> and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane left and
>>>>>>>>> right. In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it
>>>>>>>>> has less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel
>>>>>>>>> skills and more to do with whether one actually gets out and
>>>>>>>>> travels. These are not easy things to measure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
>>>>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What
>>>>>>>>> I do know is that most of us are affected by the general
>>>>>>>>> attitudes that surround us in a way that is hard to measure.
>>>>>>>>> Even though we have some idea of what our capabilities are,
>>>>>>>>> unless we are exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to
>>>>>>>>> believe it if we are uncertain how we would accomplish a given
>>>>>>>>> thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I believe there
>>>>>>>>> was a time when there was a clear dividing line between NFB
>>>>>>>>> training centers and many other centers. We believed that we
>>>>>>>>> have to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself
>>>>>>>>> while most other centers believed that
>>>> they need to concentrate on teaching techniques.
>>>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
>>>>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
>>>>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's
>>>>>>>>> belief in oneself is probably as important as the techniques
>>>>>>>>> used so some of the lines are not as clear as they once were.
>>>>>>>>> Still, I am skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in
>>>>>>>>> a couple of months, but of course, it depends some upon the
>>>>>>>>> starting point of the
>>>> individual.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are
>>>>>>>>> not all good travelers. The person making the observation,
>>>>>>>>> who shall remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump
>>>>>>>>> in and help but there were too many people to try to help all
>>>>>>>>> at once.
>>>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad,
>>>>>>>>> people were getting where they needed to go without
>>>>>>>>> assistance, and that what appeared to be potentially
>>>>>>>>> frustrating to an observer was not the case for the traveler.
>>>>>>>>> This isn't meant to diminish the role of good travel
>>>>>>>>> techniques, only to make the point that there is more to
>>>>>>>>> travel than techniques. Having said all this, though, I also
>>>>>>>>> believe that what we have come to call structured discovery is
>>>>>>>>> a valid difference in how one learns to travel. In some ways,
>>>>>>>>> it takes longer to learn but provides a better base from which
>>>>>>>>> to work. Some of us who did not attend NFB training centers
>>>>>>>>> have adopted this approach on our own to some degree, but we
>>>>>>>>> would probably have adopted it more easily having had training
>>>>>>>>> in an NFB
>>>> center.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem
>>>>>>>>> to be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes
>>>>>>>>> reasons for positions we might have taken. I won't bore you
>>>>>>>>> with the details of the time I almost missed a flight because
>>>>>>>>> I allowed myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to
>>>>>>>>> have one not be available for close to an hour, and how the
>>>>>>>>> airline employee refused to tell me which gate I needed to get
>>>>>>>>> to. Anyway, some of what you are hearing here would have been
>>>>>>>>> a part of your training at an NFB Center. You would likely
>>>>>>>>> have been given the chance to interact personally with people
>>>>>>>>> who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>>>>>>>>> questions. You can get some of this information here, of
>>>>>>>>> course, but what about the many experiences that
>>>> are not discussed?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was,
>>>>>>>>> because it might be all right. I feel pretty certain that
>>>>>>>>> there are things you didn't get that you would have gotten had
>>>>>>>>> you spent time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I
>>>>>>>>> don't really think that is the point. The point is how can we
>>>>>>>>> help you now and how can you help us and other blind people?
>>>>>>>>> Are there things you are not comfortable doing that perhaps
>>>>>>>>> someone else here is comfortable doing? We could even explore
>>>>>>>>> here some of the things that many of us have overcome as a
>>>>>>>>> result of the encouragement from
>>>> others.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things
>>>>>>>>> exactly as I see them, isn't that always true? In the end,
>>>>>>>>> though, I don't care that much whether you believe there is a
>>>>>>>>> difference in training centers or not. I care more that you
>>>>>>>>> have what you need to get a job when you get out of college
>>>>>>>>> and that you are able to live as full a life as you can live,
>>>>>>>>> and I believe there are ways we can help you do that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
>>>>>>>>>> federationists-that my local training simply must have been
>>>>>>>>>> far, far inferior to anything the NFB has. I have as of yet
>>>>>>>>>> seen no actual compelling evidence for this claim, and no one
>>>>>>>>>> I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as
>>>>>>>>>> to why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't know me
>>>>>>>>>> can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If
>>>>>>>>>> NFB mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people
>>>>>>>>>> interested to pay for a little instruction to get a sense of
>>>>>>>>>> their methodology in real space time rather than forcing
>>>>>>>>>> people to
> commit to six to nine months.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
>>>>>>>>>> Thu,
>>>>>>>>>> 21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a
>>>>>>>>>> replacement for mobility skills. Whether you use a cane,
>>>>>>>>>> sighted guide, or a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>>> If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you
>>>>>>>>>> get locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>>>> Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>>>> knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
>>>>>>>>>> areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and
>>>>>>>>>> the mobility and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>>>> If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the
>>>>>>>>>> NFB's philosophy then it comes with the first steps in
>>>>>>>>>> mobility and then a dog. I have not been blind all my life.
>>>>>>>>>> I lost my vision as an adult, and I learned the mobility and
>>>>>>>>>> cane skills, my dog doesn't know when to cross the street, I
>>>>>>>>>> have to give him the direction to do
>>>> so.
>>>>>>>>>> Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first
>>>>>>>>>> to mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we
>>>>>>>>>> will either not want to take our dogs places, by our own
>>>>>>>>>> choice, or in between a dog, or whatever the issues are.
>>>>>>>>>> That I know the skills to get me where I want to go whether
>>>>>>>>>> it is with my Maxx or
> not.
>>>>>>>>>> Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>>>> Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>>>> Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with
>>>>>>>>>> kindness to one another; and with the philosophy of the great
> organization.
>>>>>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading
>>>>>>>>>> the Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible
>>>>>>>>>> Travel Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>>>>>>>>> Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@
>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>> che
>>>>>>>>>> varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>>>> Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>>>> Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose
>>>>>>>>>> TravelCST - #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of
>>>>>>>>>> the National Federation of the Blind will be holding a year
>>>>>>>>>> round fundraiser for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane
>>>>>>>>>> Sandy and other
>>>> resources.
>>>>>>>>>> Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November
>>>>>>>>>> 6,
>>>>>>>>>> 2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>>>> 12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>>>> Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for
>>>>>>>>>> families and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking
>>>>>>>>>> will go to the affiliate as well. You do not need to be a
>>>>>>>>>> member of the NFB.org, just book through us.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up
>>>>>>>>>> that much time for mobility training I already had purely for
>>>>>>>>>> the purpose of getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go
>>>>>>>>>> somewhere else
>>>> straightaway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
>>>>>>>>>> Thu,
>>>>>>>>>> 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was
>>>>>>>>>> a real lack of quality training for blind people. I don't
>>>>>>>>>> really think that's the case with guide schools. There are
>>>>>>>>>> some schools which do things differently from others. But,
>>>>>>>>>> there are people who prefer one approach over another. I
>>>>>>>>>> don't really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog
> training.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
>>>>>>>>>> nine month NFB center training, first, this will severely
>>>>>>>>>> limit the number of people choosing to have training from
>>>>>>>>>> an NFB guide dog school, should one be started. I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know to many people who can give up a year of their life to
>>>>>>>>>> get a
> guide dog.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in
>>>>>>>>>> the past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with
>>>>>>>>>> her comments below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario
>>>>>>>>>> for an NFB-run guide dog program:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and
>>>>>>>>>> adjustment centers for blind adults and youth there would be
>>>>>>>>>> no need for a facility for housing students in training to
>>>>>>>>>> be
> constructed.
>>>>>>>>>> Hold on folks.
>>>>>>>>>> Students
>>>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required
>>>>>>>>>> to complete the
>>>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the
>>>>>>>>>> student's "Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity
>>>>>>>>>> to come to know the student inside-out and will be able to
>>>>>>>>>> furnish lots of background information on the applicant to
>>>>>>>>>> the guide dog unit.
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike current guide dog programs that must rely on
>>>>>>>>>> references and other information that may be true or false
>>>>>>>>>> the NFB guide dog program will have all ready had accurate
>>>>>>>>>> information gathered for them by the training center and
>>>>>>>>>> can be assured that the applicant is a suitable candidate
>>>>>>>>>> for a dog.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
>>>>>>>>>> the student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is
>>>>>>>>>> capable of transferring them to the use of a dog. Students
>>>>>>>>>> that successfully complete the cane travel component of
>>>>>>>>>> their immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to
>>>>>>>>>> complete other aspects of their immersion training
>>>>>>>>>> minimizing the wasted time students often experience when at
>>>>>>>>>> guide dog training facilities.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be
>>>>>>>>>> required to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other
>>>>>>>>>> center classes and participating in designated center activities.
>>>>>>>>>> Like students who undergo cane travel instruction at our
>>>>>>>>>> centers those training with dogs would be encouraged to
>>>>>>>>>> travel on their own prior to completion of the training. In
>>>>>>>>>> the beginning they could be accompanied by an experienced
>>>>>>>>>> guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel and
>>>>>>>>>> complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their
>>>> own using their dogs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it
>>>>>>>>>> would operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.
>>>>>>>>>> The program would operate its own breeding component or
>>>>>>>>>> obtain suitable dogs from donations. The usual period of
>>>>>>>>>> socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much
>>>>>>>>>> different than is done by current guide dog programs. The
>>>>>>>>>> dogs would return for a period of training when they're
>>>>>>>>>> taught how
> to guide a blind person.
>>>>>>>>>> Once the dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind
>>>>>>>>>> owner they along with an instructor would be sent to the
>>>>>>>>>> center where the student receiving the dog will be trained.
>>>>>>>>>> Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could operate from
>>>>>>>>>> one of
> our centers.
>>>>>>>>>> Those wishing to obtain dogs once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for
>>>>>>>>>> training with the dog. Using all ready existing facilities
>>>>>>>>>> to house students in training is one way to reduce the cost
>>>>>>>>>> of training guide
>>>> dogs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>>>>>>>>> guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have
>>>>>>>>>> additional ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion
>>>>>>>>>> must continue at a cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First
>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see a more in depth background investigation
>>>>>>>>>> of the blind applicant. Do a criminal background check,
>>>>>>>>>> require more references, ask the neighbors...whatever it
>>>>>>>>>> takes. Adoption agencies place children into homes surely
>>>>>>>>>> we can figure out a way to more accurately know what sort
>>>>>>>>>> of situation the dog will be
>>>> placed into.
>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for
>>>>>>>>>> dealing with animal abuse, the police and animal control.
>>>>>>>>>> I don't see any reason why these agencies can't be used in
>>>>>>>>>> cases of neglect or abuse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost
>>>>>>>>>> of the dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely
>>>>>>>>>> valid point.
>>>>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
>>>>>>>>>> Eye's concept of charging the student. I do wish that the
>>>>>>>>>> cost had increased over the years with the cost of living.
>>>>>>>>>> It has been $150 since the beginning of the school in 1928.
>>>>>>>>>> I think that's the right year.
>>>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look
>>>>>>>>>> at the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it
>>>>>>>>>> costs to train a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those
>>>>>>>>>> buildings, fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties
>>>>>>>>>> cost
> money.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahu
>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>> 2%4
>>>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy42
>>>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>>> %40
>>>>>>>>>> verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbyca
>>>>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>>>> lso
>>>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
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>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cheryla
>>>>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>>>>> dma
>>>>>>>>>> xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>>>> lso
>>>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> cobs
>>>>>>>>>> on%4
>>>>>>>>>> 0visi.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
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>>>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>>>> 3%4
>>>>>>>>> 0gma
>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>> a
>>>>>> rth
>>>>>> link.ne
>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>>>> com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> %40
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>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> %
>>>>> 40g
>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Cordially,
> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
> cum laude Auburn University
> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for anything"
> Peter Q Wolfe
> "Stand up for your rights"
> Bob Marley
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Cordially,
Peter Q Wolfe, BA
cum laude Auburn University
e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
"If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for anything"
Peter Q Wolfe
"Stand up for your rights"
Bob Marley
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