[BlindTlk] Optacon, was Braille books in old old

Fri Sep 6 18:42:55 UTC 2019

That is just too funny Judy! I got to meet you in person. If things go the way my husband and I plan, we will be at the 2020 NFBW national convention in Houston. :-)

Ericka Nelson

> On Sep 6, 2019, at 12:51 PM, Judy Jones via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> That does make sense.
> 
> Sometimes at the office, during the winter, my fingers would get colder, so I'd go to the break room and soak for a couple of minutes in hot water.  I used to joake about getting too cold to see to read.
> 
> Judy
> 
> “Embrace each day with His mercies and blessings.”
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindTlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peggy via BlindTlk
> Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 8:55 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Cc: Peggy
> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Braille books in old old
> 
> The thing I notice about the Optacon II is that it is affected by weather. I find that when it is cold, the pins are  out of the array before it is even turned on making it more difficult to read. Once the weather gets warmer, the pins are  below the array the way they should be  and can't be felt until it is turned on. I find it much easier to read when the weather is warmer. I even talked to Richard Oehm about this. I know, you all think I'm crazy.
> Peggy and Dixie Marie
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 5, 2019, at 10:39 PM, Steve Jacobson via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Dave,
>> 
>> The array was definitely a slightly different size with fewer pins as you said.  That contributed to it not working as well, but the sort of "mushiness", for the lack of a better word, definitely went beyond the smaller array.  There were some nice design improvements as well, and I would have considered buying one if it had worked as well as the old one.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Steve Jacobson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlindTlk <blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of David Andrews via BlindTlk
>> Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 5:38 PM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: David Andrews <dandrews920 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Braille books in old old
>> 
>> Steve:  I believe their were less pins in the 
>> array for the Optacon 2, to save money.
>> 
>> I had an original Optacon, and used to use it, 
>> but was never very fast. And ... since I wasn't fast, I didn't use it much.
>> 
>> There were some people who became very good with 
>> it -- but most of us weren't fast enough to make it useful.
>> 
>> Dave
>> 
>> At 09:20 AM 9/4/2019, you wrote:
>>> Ericka,
>>> 
>>> I am another Optacon user, and I find it 
>>> frustrating that no current technology lets us 
>>> do the same thing as an Optacon did.  However, I 
>>> think we have to be careful not to glorify it 
>>> too much.  There were many people who just 
>>> couldn't get the hang of using it.  One moved a 
>>> camera with the right hand and read with the 
>>> left hand which meant that there was some 
>>> coordination needed.  Also, the resolution of 
>>> the display was much higher than what one sees 
>>> on the braille display.  There were therefore 
>>> people who  could read braille but whose fingers 
>>> had trouble reading with an Optacon.  Reading 
>>> speed was also an issue.  There were quite a few 
>>> people who read up to 100 words per minute.  I 
>>> am not aware of anybody who read much faster 
>>> than that.  Those whom I knew that read 100 
>>> words per minute with an Optacon were also very 
>>> fast braille readers, reading probably three 
>>> times that rate in braille.  I tended to read 
>>> for detail and my reading speed was not that 
>>> good.  Also, one didn't just buy the unit and 
>>> read.  There was a definite learning curve, and 
>>> one really had to commit to reading a 
>>> significant amount each day to achieve a maximum 
>>> reading speed.  It also meant that many of us 
>>> had to learn print letters and symbols as 
>>> well.  Telesensory and other agencies offered 
>>> training programs to get one started that lasted 
>>> two weeks or so.  This training was not cheap 
>>> and was a significant addition to the price.
>>> 
>>> In an effort to move toward making a more 
>>> portable model and to make it less expensive, 
>>> Telesensory developed the Optacon II which used 
>>> some off-the-shelf parts that were custom made 
>>> for the original optacon.  It also used some 
>>> digital technology.  However, those of us who 
>>> used the new optacon found that the images 
>>> seemed less sharp than on the original 
>>> optacon.  I don't know why that was.  That was 
>>> disappointing, and it probably hurt sales 
>>> some.  One would think that with today's 
>>> technology that such a problem probably would be nonexistent.
>>> 
>>> Finally, Telesensory took the marketing approach 
>>> that the Optacon could replace braille and 
>>> pushed some to get it into the hands of young 
>>> blind kids in schools.  Given that braille is 
>>> often read more quickly by people who learn it 
>>> at a young age, the idea that a young child 
>>> could perhaps learn to read with an Optacon much 
>>> faster was probably justifiable, but many of us 
>>> thought that it was risky for kids to spend a 
>>> lot of time learning the Optacon rather than 
>>> learning braille.  I think all of these things 
>>> caused the Optacon to disappear as a product.
>>> 
>>> I've seen projects to build a new Optacon, but 
>>> nothing solid seems to ever happen with those 
>>> projects.  I must also say that even at the 
>>> time, I wondered how we would have handled the 
>>> success of the Optacon to see our ability to 
>>> read controlled by a single company, at the 
>>> expense of braille.  It never came to that, but 
>>> it was not beyond the realm of possibility if 
>>> faster reading speeds could have been achieved 
>>> at the expense of learning braille.
>>> 
>>> Also, the optacon did not provide us with a more 
>>> convenient way to write.  There was an 
>>> attachment that one could by that mounted the 
>>> optacon camera on certain typewriters.  The 
>>> attachment allowed one to see the character that 
>>> was being typed allowing one to make more 
>>> reliable corrections.  However, even portable 
>>> typewriters of the day were not that small.
>>> 
>>> Another attachment allowed one to use the 
>>> Optacon to read an electronic 
>>> calculator.  Remember, they didn't talk until 
>>> 1975 or so and the Optacon was available 
>>> slightly before that time, and the first talking 
>>> calculators were expensive.  Yet another 
>>> attachment could be used to read computer 
>>> screens.  At that time, talking computers were also not available.
>>> 
>>> Both the availability of talking calculators and 
>>> computers that supported braille and speech cut 
>>> into the value of these additional 
>>> attachments.  In those cases, the Optacon really 
>>> didn't add value over the option of braille and 
>>> speech.  That probably also cut into the market for the Optacon.
>>> 
>>> Still, I have a much better sense of how print 
>>> looks and the differences between different 
>>> fonts and such because of the Optacon.  There 
>>> are still times when I find I can read something 
>>> that none of the OCR approaches reads, and I 
>>> don't always know why.  Still, more often than 
>>> not, I tend to try K-1000, Seeing-AI, or 
>>> VoiceDream Scanner first when reading something 
>>> because if they succeed they are faster, and 
>>> over the years the KNFB reader has been very useful.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindTlk <blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ericka via BlindTlk
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 7:52 AM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Ericka <dotwriter1 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Braille books in old old
>>> 
>>> Why didnâ€™t they just make a more portable 
>>> model rather than abandon them? I remember 
>>> hearing that the first K- NFB type reading 
>>> things were in the late 70s. My husband uses 
>>> Kurzweil 1000 on his computer. I donâ€™t know 
>>> how to use it. I use Seeing AI mostly. For the 
>>> bottles, we both have a script to talk station.
>>> 
>>> Ericka Nelson
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:45 PM, Judy Jones via 
>>> BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, they are great, and individuals still 
>>> sell them, and there are people who still 
>>> repair them, so they are alive and well.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, you are actually reading print with this 
>>> mechanical device.  All this before OCR 
>>> technology.  The blind person is the brains, 
>>> and you are actually reading what a sighted person would see.
>>>> 
>>>> You can read round medicine bottles and things that OCR can't touch.
>>>> 
>>>> Judy
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindTlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Ericka via BlindTlk
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 7:09 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Cc: Ericka
>>>> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Braille books in old old
>>>> 
>>>> I saw one once but never got to use it. That 
>>> was before I knew any braille at all. From what 
>>> I understand it raised the printer somethings 
>>> so you can read it. That would make sense Judy 
>>> that you would understand. What do people do 
>>> when theyâ€™re ancient up to cons die? You 
>>> canâ€™t replace them and I bet you canâ€™t fix 
>>> them too easily either. I heard they were pretty cool.
>>>> 
>>>> Ericka Nelson
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 3, 2019, at 8:00 PM, Judy Jones via 
>>> BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> It makes verymuch sense to those of us that use an optacon.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Judy
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: BlindTlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Ericka via BlindTlk
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 5:13 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Cc: Ericka
>>>>> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Braille books in old old
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think it makes less sense to people who 
>>> have never seen print done to those of us who 
>>> could reprint at one time in our lives. It 
>>> makes sense to let you know whether something 
>>> is in bold or not. And if you are formatting 
>>> something to be printed and look good for the 
>>> side of the world itâ€™s important as well. The 
>>> rest of the world centers titles a lot of times 
>>> like on a resume for example. I do think itâ€™s 
>>> stupid that they took some signs away. Braille 
>>> is a lot of extra pages. Someone told me once 
>>> that it takes three braille pages to equal the 
>>> information one printed page and thatâ€™s not 
>>> including spacing such as between paragraphs etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I donâ€™t think you guys realize how 
>>> different print is from braille. And I 
>>> wouldnâ€™t expect any person who was born blind 
>>> and I only read braille to understand. Just be nice to those of us who can.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ericka Nelson
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sep 3, 2019, at 5:41 PM, Jesse Johnson 
>>> via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I agree this new EB makes no sense at all
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sep 3, 2019, at 5:37 PM, Pamela 
>>> Dominguez via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I know we can't do anything about it.  I 
>>> can read it somewhat better, depending on how 
>>> much different stuff there is in it.  If it's 
>>> just regular text, it's okay.  But I don't see 
>>> any reason to ever write it, myself.  I just 
>>> don't think I will be put in a situation where that is necessary.  Pam.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Hyde, David W. (ESC) via BlindTlk
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2019 11:16 AM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Cc: Hyde, David W. (ESC)
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Braille books in old old
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well, whether we like it or not, the train 
>>> has left the station. I can read UEB better 
>>> than I can write it. Sixty years of doing it 
>>> one way doesn't change in a moment. I still put 
>>> words together, use signs that have gone away, 
>>> and when reading, I come to a full stop when I see a, followed by tion.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: BlindTlk <blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jesse
>>>>>>> Johnson via BlindTlk
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 10:11 AM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Cc: Jesse Johnson <jayjohnson66 at me.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Braille books in old old
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think of the old saying if itâ€™s not broke donâ€™t fix it they broke
>>>>>>> it by trying to fix it
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:07 AM, Ericka via 
>>> BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There are words that you canâ€™t combine 
>>> together anymore like of the house to have a 
>>> space between it. The sign for by like â€œby 
>>> the seaside or byline Hass to be spelled out now.
>>>>>>>> Trust me, Iâ€™ve tried to read the stuff 
>>> and I canâ€™t. Itâ€™s too confusing. 
>>> Punctuation changed a lot by the way. The 
>>> simple.?, Etc. didnâ€™t but have you looked at 
>>> those parenthesis? Yeah they look a lot more 
>>> like print so itâ€™s easy for me to remember how to read.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ericka Nelson
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 3, 2019, at 12:13 AM, Judy Jones 
>>> via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In US Braille:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dropped d at the beginning of a word is letters dis.
>>>>>>>>> In the middle is a double-d as in "daddy."
>>>>>>>>> At the end is a period.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dropped h at beginning is a open-quote In middle, not used in
>>>>>>>>> literary braille.
>>>>>>>>> At the end, a question-mark.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dropped F:
>>>>>>>>> At beginning is the word "to."
>>>>>>>>> In the middle is a double-f.
>>>>>>>>> At the end is an exclamation point.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> These things aren't that much different 
>>> in UEB, although some of the rules did change for UEB.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Judy
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: BlindTlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> Ericka via BlindTlk
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 7:20 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Ericka
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Braille books in old old
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Judy, and I learn braille as a child or 
>>> had no residual vision I probably could. 
>>> However I find the US braille difficult. 
>>> Dropped F, drop D and dropped H. is in weird 
>>> places main something depending on where they 
>>> are. That is confusing! I read faster in the 
>>> new braille. I have childrenâ€™s books and some 
>>> religious things for the taking.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ericka Nelson
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 2, 2019, at 6:57 PM, Judy Jones 
>>> via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi, Erika,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Actually, if you can do UEB braille, 
>>> you can also read US.  There are differences in 
>>> the punctuation and numbers formatting, but the 
>>> numbers and letters themselves are all the 
>>> same.  Most of the contractions are the same, 
>>> they have done away with some of them, but you 
>>> will never find a strange formation of dots you can't recognize.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I took the UEB course, just to know 
>>> what it is like, and although I prefer US braille, I can read the UEB.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Judy
>>>>>>>>>> â€œEmbrace the day with its mercies and blessings.â€
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: BlindTlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>> Ericka via BlindTlk
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 9:46 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Ericka
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [BlindTlk] Braille books in old old
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Iâ€™m wondering what people are doing 
>>> with braille books that are in that were 
>>> produced before the 2015 change over to UEB. I 
>>> have braille books that I really donâ€™t want 
>>> to toss, but I canâ€™t read them well enough in 
>>> the pre-2015 braille to justify keeping. Iâ€™m 
>>> willing to send them overseas or free matter 
>>> them to someone who canâ€™t send them overseas. Let me know.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Ericka Nelson
>> 
>> 
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