[blparent] it somces closer

Wed Dec 16 18:39:36 UTC 2009

Michael, I would suggest delaying any quick decisions about retiring your 
dog.  Wait and see how it goes after the baby is born, and if your needs 
change.  The school will be able to offer you advice that is more tailored 
to your individual situation.

Jo Elizabeth

Until lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always glorify 
the hunters.--African Proverb

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:24 AM
To: "NFBnet Blind Parents Mailing List" <blparent at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blparent] it somces closer

> Sure, you can do that.
> The question though is do you want to do this? Will a dog fit well into
> your new lifestyle? In mine, it wouldn't.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Babcock, Michael A.
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:18 AM
> To: NFBnet Blind Parents Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blparent] it somces closer
>
> hi;
> my dog is three also right now, if i retire him, can i still keep him as
> a pet? BTW, i got him from guidedogs, in november of 2007, and i did
> "take ownership" of him.
>
> mike
>
> On Dec 16, 2009, at 4:52 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS) wrote:
>
>> The schools can and do help, but don't equate helping with fixing the
>> problem/issues.
>> The school can't step in to give your kid a bath or supervise bath
> time
>> if it takes longer then normal. The school can't clean up vomit when
>> your kid throws up meaning that park time gets delayed. The school
> can't
>> watch your kid so you can get a couple extra hours of sleep, and can't
>> take the dog out if you've just settled your kid after a rough night
> and
>> all you want to do is crawl back into bed yourself.
>> The school can advise on overall procedure, but can't ensure that you
>> implement it or that you have the desire to implement it.
>> My dog was barely three when I had my daughter. She wanted and needed
>> and deserved more then I was able to give her.
>> Michael, you can certainly use a dog, but both you and your partner
> will
>> need to be committed to that being what you are going to do. If you
>> aren't, or she isn't, or circumstances happen beyond your control,
> then
>> that's fine too. Give it a try if you are so inclined, but don't
> forcea
>> fit either. You can always get another dog when your child is
> older/out
>> of the house.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Jo Elizabeth Pinto
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:03 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Parents Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blparent] it somces closer
>>
>> Dena, you wrote a lot of what I was thinking but didn't take the time
> to
>> put
>> into words.  Thank you.  I love my guide dog, but she doesn't get
> nearly
>> as
>> much work as she used to when I was commuting, pre-baby, and taking a
>> lot of
>> buses and such.  Ballad is eight years old, so she's been okay with
>> slowing
>> down, but I won't get another guide when she retires.  At least not
> till
>>
>> Sarah is closer to school age.
>>
>> The other thing I want to reinforce, is that it takes time and
> patience
>> to
>> teach a toddler how to interact with a dog.  I'm always reinforcing
> "Pet
>>
>> Ballad nice" and "Be gentle" over and over again, and lately, I'm
> having
>> to
>> stop Sarah from taking Ballad's toys.
>>
>>
>> Good luck with anything you decide, and the best advice I can give is,
>> be in
>> touch with your school.  Guide dog handlers have become parents many
>> times
>> before, and the school should be able to help you with any issues that
>> come
>> up.
>>
>> Take care.
>>
>> Jo Elizabeth
>>
>> Until lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always
>> glorify
>> the hunters.--African Proverb
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Dena Wainwright" <dena at envogueaccess.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:18 PM
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Parents Mailing List" <blparent at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [blparent] it somces closer
>>
>>> This is a very difficult issue, and there is no right or wrong
> answer.
>>>
>>> Mike, I'm not sure where your dog comes from, but before I had Elise
> I
>> had
>>> a trainer from GDB visit me to teach me the proper way to pull the
>>> stroller and work a dog. While she was here, I asked her about this
>> exact
>>> thing - how to introduce my daughter and my dog, and how to deal with
>
>>> potential issues before they happened.
>>>
>>> What she told me, is that the biggest problems occur when people get
>> all
>>> freaked out about the dog having access to the new baby. They banish
>> the
>>> dog to another part of the house, scold the dog for showing interest
>> in
>>> the baby, and before they know it, they have a very jealous,
>>> displaced-feeling dog. Obviously dogs react differently in such a
> case
>> -
>>> perhaps acting up in the house, perhaps refusing to work, perhaps
>> acting
>>> aggressively to the object (baby) that has displaced them from their
>> pack.
>>>
>>> Based on her advice, we did the following...
>>>
>>> We left the door to what would be Elise's room open so the dogs could
>
>>> wander in whenever they wanted. They were allowed to sniff the crib,
>>> carseat, boxes of diapers - whatever we had in there at any given
>> time.
>>>
>>> When I had Elise, I had my mom (who was staying with our dogs while I
>> was
>>> in the hospital) bring home a blanket I had wrapped her up in. She
>> just
>>> dropped it in the middle of the living room floor, and let the dogs
>> sniff
>>> at it whenever they wanted. That way, when we brought Elise home,
> they
>>
>>> already had her scent
>>>
>>> . The other thing we did, is introduced the dogs to her one at a
> time.
>>
>>> Jason held the baby on his lap, and I brought each dog over to them
> on
>>
>>> leash. The dogs were allowed to sniff her head, lick her hands, etc.
>> Hands
>>> can be washed down with baby wipes afterward, but that first chance
> at
>> an
>>> introduction cannot be re-done.
>>>
>>> In the early weeks home, we had a Moses basket for Elise. It's
>> basically a
>>> light-weight wicker basket that could be carried from room to room.
>> This
>>> allowed us to place her on the floor with walls around her. This way,
>> the
>>> dogs could look in at her, or even lay beside the bassinette, without
>> any
>>> fear of them accidentally smothering her or knocking it over. One
> area
>>
>>> where we needed to exercise some caution is when we put Elise on her
>> play
>>> gym. I didn't keep the dogs out of her room, but I supervised very
>> closely
>>> to make sure she didn't get squashed.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, some of the dynamics between baby and dog can shift
>>> dramatically once they become more mobile. One of our dogs is a
> little
>>
>>> Weiner Dog. He was great with Elise in the beginning, but as soon as
>> she
>>> was able to tug on him and chase him around the house, all of that
>>> changed. He began to growl and snap at her, and as a result, he is
> now
>>
>>> living with a friend of our family who has no children. We could not
>> risk
>>> him biting her, no matter how remote that possibility might have
> been.
>>>
>>> Kaylor, my current guide (a Golden) is amazing with my daughter. He
>> really
>>> does have the patience of a saint where she is concerned. Having said
>
>>> that, I have a real problem with parents who take the attitude that
>> it's
>>> "the dog's job to take whatever the kids dish out." That is a totally
>
>>> irresponsible way to own a dog, and to parent, for that matter.
>> Obviously,
>>> I cannot prevent every instance of Elise being excessively rough with
>
>>> Kaylor. However, I absolutely do not reinforce that behavior. The
>> other
>>> night, she walked over to him, and clobbered him over the head with
>> one of
>>> her large, plastic  toys. She immediately went to bed. She may not
> yet
>>
>>> understand the corelation, but she will, and the earlier we start
>> teaching
>>> her that it is inappropriate to hit the dog, or yank on his ears, the
>
>>> better for everyone involved.
>>>
>>> In terms of maintaining a guide while caring for a young baby, I
> agree
>>
>>> with much of what Rebecca has said. I am fortunate, because my dog is
>> 7,
>>> and is nearing the end of his career. However, if he had been an
>> extremely
>>> new and young dog when I had Elise, I am pretty sure I would have
> sent
>> him
>>> back to the school to be reissued. I honestly don't have the time or
>>> energy that he deserves. Luckally, he is a good "sometimes" worker,
>> which
>>> is the only reason why this has worked as long as it has.
>>>
>>> However, if you, as a brand new parent, can find time to do regular
>>> obedience, groomings, workouts, etc. with your dog, you should write
> a
>>
>>> book, because many of us would pay to learn how you manage to do it.
>> Many
>>> of the complications come from logistics - carrying a baby, a diaper
>> bag,
>>> and a carseat in one hand, while working the dog with the other.
> Other
>>
>>> issues come from space constraints - fitting a dog, a baby, and all
> of
>>
>>> their respective gear into a tiny car or taxi.
>>> Some of it is a function of season. I'm not sure where you live, but
> I
>>
>>> live in Minnesota, and I absolutely am not going to stand at a bus
>> stop
>>> for 25 minutes with an infant when it's 4 degrees outside. All of
>> these
>>> factors can add up to less work for your dog, despite your best
>>> intentions.
>>>
>>> And, when your baby is very small, and your bearly getting 3 hours of
>
>>> sleep a day, the last thing you want to do when you finally get that
>> baby
>>> to close his eyes is brush your dog or take her for a walk. Then you
>> start
>>> getting into play dates at other people's houses. Those people may or
>> may
>>> not want your dog in their home, and there may or may not be children
>
>>> present who are afraid of large dogs.
>>>
>>> I'm not trying to say that it is impossible to use a dog while
>> parenting a
>>> young baby, but I do think it is extremely challenging, and that it
>>> requires a significant commitment on the part of the handler. I, for
>> one,
>>> do not plan to replace my current guide until my daughter is at least
>> 3 or
>>> 4. I just don't think I have enough time, work, attention, or energy
>>> left-over at the end of a day of caring for Elise, running all the
>>> errands, cleaning the house, doing the laundry, cooking the meals,
>> etc.
>>> Heck, I'm lucky if I get to check my email once a day :).
>>>
>>> Hope some of this novel helps.
>>>
>>> Dena
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
>>> To: "NFBnet Blind Parents Mailing List" <blparent at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:33 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [blparent] it somces closer
>>>
>>>
>>>> I found working with a guide dog very difficult once I had my
>> daughter.
>>>> It was fine before she could move, and then the older she got, the
>>>> harder it got. She and my dog were very close, too close in that she
>>>> would toss food on the floor, and my dog would eat it. Putting the
>> dog
>>>> in a different room didn't work because she just wouldn't eat, the
>> she
>>>> being my daughter. I found it very difficult to get both the baby
> and
>>>> dog ready and out the door in the morning, and myself too. It drove
>> me
>>>> nuts adding the dog's needs into those of my daughter's. There were
>> and
>>>> still are times when she only wanted Mommy, and so we'd be cuddling
>> and
>>>> I'd think "the dog needs to do park time, when will we be done
> here".
>>>> The whole thing was stressful.
>>>> To complicate things, my husband worked the swing shift, so often,
> it
>>>> was myself, my daughter and the dog alone. This doesn't sound bad,
>>>> except that there are many activities with a baby you can't stop
> like
>>>> batheing, eating, diaper changing, stuff like that. And sometimes
>> these
>>>> activities take longer then others, making the schedule hard to
>>>> maintain.
>>>> I would get real stressed when my daughter was not feeling well, and
>> I
>>>> knew the dog needed to go out and work.
>>>> I'd also get stressed when my daughter needed to go to bed and I
> knew
>>>> the dog could use some extra work and I'd have to be home because
>> there
>>>> is nothing worse then a tired toddler. My husband wasn't home so
> it's
>>>> not like I could leave my daughter home by herself while I took the
>> dog
>>>> out for some extra work.
>>>> Also, I found that as my daughter got to walking, she likes to stop
>> and
>>>> look at things and talk about them. This frustrated my dog, and I
>> didn't
>>>> think it was fair to either hurry my daughter along, or make the dog
>>>> stop guiding so we could talk about a firetruck or an airplane
> flying
>>>> overhead or watch the big kids play ball.
>>>> I also found that I didn't want to spend time brushing and basically
>>>> bonding with my dog after putting my daughter to bed. My mindset was
>>>> "Well, I've been with the dog at work all day, I don't want to spend
>>>> time with you at night". Not fair, I know, but it was what it was.
>>>> Finally, we went through a period where my daughter had an ear
>> infection
>>>> about once every two weeks. This earned her a set of ear tubes, but
>> it
>>>> took awhile to get that sorted out. Adding a dog's medical needs as
>> well
>>>> as my daughter's wore me out.
>>>> I decided to retire my dog, and am glad I did. I can focus my energy
>>>> more fully on the human members of my family.
>>>> I found that when my husband and I'd go out without our daughter, I
>>>> wouldn't enjoy working my dog because to me, the same skill set
>> involved
>>>> in being  a parent is the same skill set involved with being a good
>> dog
>>>> handler. This meant that I felt like I hadn't had any time with my
>>>> husband.
>>>> Also too, I've found that people are more willing to assist when I'm
>> out
>>>> with my daughter. I can remember wanting a high chair at I think
>>>> McDonald's and when I asked for one, the lady behind the counter was
>>>> like "Won't the dog get that for you". Um, no, she wouldn't. Ditto
>> when
>>>> I needed to find an appropriate changing facility, people just
>> expected
>>>> the dog to know where that stuff was. I even had someone think my
> dog
>>>> was supposed to calm my daughter down when she was having a huge red
>>>> zone tantrum.
>>>> I have no idea how I'd wrestle a screaming biting toddler into her
>>>> carseat with a dog, you can't let go of the kid ina parking lot, and
>>>> letting go of the dog may or may not be a good idea depending on
>> where
>>>> you are.
>>>> What Eva says about not leaving a dog and baby alone together is
>> true,
>>>> but it is also very difficult to manage a dog and young kid together
>> if
>>>> you are the only adult involved. At least, this is my experience.
>>>> UI'd be curious to know how and why others came to the conclution
>> that
>>>> using a dog was something they wanted and/or needed to do.
>>>> I'll also say,t hat my husband isn't really a dog person. I knew
> this
>>>> when I married him.
>>>> I'll also add that what pet dogs and guide dogs don't equate asa pet
>> dog
>>>> isn't responsible for your safety. If the pet eats too much of the
>> wrong
>>>> food, and you have a backyard, you can just put the pet outside. Not
>>>> such a good idea with a guide dog, or so is my opinion
>>>> Michael, your experience may differ being that you're a dad. Also,
>> know
>>>> that you can work your dog as normal and if you find it isn't fun or
>>>> worthwile anymore, you can always retire the dog. I did and while it
>> was
>>>> not easy emotionally, it was also the right choice for myself and my
>>>> family at the time I made it.
>>>> My daughter and dog are still close. My parents have the dog, and
>> last
>>>> time we visited, my mom wanted all the dogs to go outside. My
>> daughter
>>>> said "Jersey doesn't want to go outside, Jersey wants to stay here."
>> So
>>>> Jersey got to stay in the kitchen with the people.
>>>> And, she still hangs out by my daughter who still feeds her when we
>> go
>>>> visit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On Behalf Of Eileen Levin
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 7:36 PM
>>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Parents Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [blparent] it somces closer
>>>>
>>>> Both my labradors were great with the kids. My first one didn't like
>> to
>>>> play
>>>> with the kids but she was very tolerant any way. The dog I got when
>> my
>>>> son
>>>> was two absolutely loves to play with the kids and gives my boys a
>> run
>>>> for
>>>> their money wrestling with bones, playing fetch and so on.
>>>> Eileen
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Babcock, Michael A.
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 10:36 AM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Parents Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [blparent] it somces closer
>>>>
>>>> guys;
>>>> I went to an ultra sound last week, oh and let me tell you, that,
>> was,
>>>> an
>>>> experience. I was amazed.
>>>> Second of all, i'm doing shopping for christmas gifts for my friends
>> and
>>>> family right now and it made me think, wow, next christmas, my kid
>> will
>>>> be
>>>> about 8 months old, that's scary as hell.
>>>> (pardon the language)
>>>> I'm excited but very scared also. I'm curious however, do you guys
>> any
>>>> of
>>>> you, have guide dogs, and how are your dogs around babies? I ask
>> because
>>>> mine, sheffield, i think will be ok. My soon to be wife's aunt's kid
>> who
>>>> was
>>>> like a year and a half would pole his tail, and smile. Sheffield
> laid
>>>> there,
>>>> and i think he didn't get tired of it, but at one point he reached
> up
>>>> and
>>>> licked JR. in the face, this scared JR. and he ran away, but what do
>> you
>>>> guys think is the best way to introduce a guide dog to a baby? I
> know
>>>> this
>>>> isn't a guide dog list, but i thought that that is a relevant
>> question.
>>>> I
>>>> fear sheffield will be very very protective.
>>>> thanks a lot
>>>> Mike
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