[blparent] Pass the butter please or perhaps not!
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Mon May 21 19:58:31 UTC 2012
Erin,
The intent here isn't to cause anyone to be scared. We just need to try to stick to issues that more
directly deal with blind parenting so they don't get lost in the mix. We have never jumped on anyone
for one off topic message, especially if the topic was one that may not clearly be off topic at the
outset. It isn't always possible to know if something is going to be off topic or not by the content of
the first post. Dave's message regarding this thread came after perhaps two dozen posts from various
people. We've had maybe another dozen or more posts after he gently asked people to abandon this
thread. What made this thread stand out was the volume of messages, the ignoring by a number of people
of Dave's request to stop, and now, even my appeal for people to stop. This isn't meant to single out
anyone, this is just a thread that has gone particularly crazy. I don't intend on making snap
judgements about topics any more than Debbie did, but our purpose is to help blind parents and that has
been completely lost in this thread. Particularly when my kids were small, there was likely something
that came up for me everyday that had to do with being a blind parent where I either could have used
help or I made a discovery that I hoped was worth sharing. It is just hard for me to imagine that there
isn't plenty to talk about along these lines, and that there is really a problem finding things to
discuss that we could all agree were also on topic. I am sorry if anything here sounds harsh, it is not
meant to be, and things can come across differently in e-mail than was intended.
I would say that if one wonders if a given subject is off topic or if one has to dig to find a way to
make a subject on topic, it probably is off topic. I don't expect that people should have to ask list
moderators for permission to bring up something, just use common sense, we're adults afterall. I am
glad to try to discuss it some off list, though, if it is necessary, but will try not to take up more
list space on this..
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Mon, 21 May 2012 09:22:33 -0700, Erin Rumer wrote:
>Steve, I do understand what you're saying and agree, especially when threads
>spiral into all sorts of directions from the original intent. It starts out
>fun but then someone starts to argue with others over how to do things like
>denying foods at someone's home and it goes down-hill from there. I have to
>say that I'm a bit anxious about what is alright to post on this list and
>not. There is so much that is brought up that has nothing to do with
>parenting as a blind parent and I just want to know if all of those threads
>are going to be stopped? Right now we have several going on and my butter
>vs. margarine thread is the only one being called out on the carpet even
>though my intent was to share nutritional facts of certain foods for the
>health of our kids. I am totally fine with sticking to blind parent related
>topics and turning to other lists for other parenting topics since that was
>the whole intent of this list but I'd just hate to see a continuation of a
>million off-topic threads come up that are not being brought to a halt and
>I'm scared to take part of in fear of being accused of veering from the
>intent of the list. If this happens, I will feel like I can't participate
>in nearly 75% of what's put on this list. I hope this makes sense.
>Thanks,
>Erin
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 8:16 AM
>To: Blind Parents Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [blparent] Pass the butter please or perhaps not!
>Erin and everyone,
>First, thank you for your previous note last night. As mentioned, I have
>been on this list since it started, but as my kids have gotten older, I've
>had less to say or ask, but am definitely not new to this list at all.
>Issues surrounding being a blind parent present particular challenges, and I
>feel it is extremely important to have as many people here to answer
>questions as is possible. Sometimes people who have nothing in common in
>terms of religion or political affilliation will completely agree on an
>approach to a problem as a blind parent.
>Since Dave and I have worked together on lists for years with my role being
>backup occasionally, we kind of know how the other thinks so I feel somewhat
>able to respond to your note even though it was addressed to Dave. This
>just doesn't have to be an either/or situation where we have strict topics
>or no restrictions at all. This list does not have to become an unfriendly
>place to go, either. However, when did this "butter" subject start? There
>have probably been two dozen messages or maybe even more, and now we are
>debating whether it is appropriate to decline unusual foods when at
>someone's house.
>There have probably been ten posts after Dave asked that we cut this off.
>What will happen is that someone will eventually offend someone else over
>something that has nothing to do with being a blind parent and we'll loose
>yet additional resources over whether one should be able to say "no thanks"
>when asked to eat alligator. This works against the reason for this list.
>We can make this work, but we all have to help. Let's please put this
>entire thread to rest.
>Best regards,
>Steve Jacobson
>On Sun, 20 May 2012 20:17:40 -0700, Erin Rumer wrote:
>>Hello Dave,
>>I totally understand that some topics can be completely unrelated to
>>parenting or blindness related parenting but I didn't think that
>>talking about the nutritional value of butter and margarine for
>>ourselves and kids was an out of control topic, but okay. If this list
>>is going to be limited to only blindness related parenting topics then
>>it looks like most discussions will have to be brought to a halt
>>because we've been talking about a lot of interesting and helpful
>>topics that don't necessarily have to do with our blindness such as
>>healthy recipes for our kids, all different types of helpful baby
>>products and appropriate music for children just to name a few. If
>>every single thread is going to have to be directly link to blindness
>>in some way than that's fine but I'll be turning to this list a lot
>>less since only a small percentage of my life is related to my
>>blindness and I'll need to turn to other parents on other list serves
>>for compelling discussions on a variety of great parenting topics. It
>>will be a bummer though because we all have so much to offer to one
>>another that has to do with parenting and is not related to our being
>>blind. I always thought that it was really nice to be able and just
>>talk "normal" parenting chat with others who are blind and realize that
>>we go through the same things that sighted parents go through. It is
>>what it is and I guess there will just be a lot less threads on this list
>or you will have your work cut-out for yourself with proof-reading.
>>Erin
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>On Behalf Of David Andrews
>>Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 7:13 PM
>>To: Blind Parents Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [blparent] Pass the butter please!
>>Erin:
>>I think that, over the years, Debbie and I and now Steve have tried to
>>allow for great latitude concerning what is appropriate for this list.
>>Yes, you can't divorce blindness from many other things. However, on
>>the other hand, long drawn discussions pro or con about topics like
>>innoculations, or breast feeding would not be appropriate for this
>>list. Do these topics come up, yes they both have and many others.
>>Some discussion is fine, but this is not an anything goes discussion list.
>>One of the things that an average list member would not be aware of is
>>who comes and who goes, that is unsubscribes from the list, and when.
>>I have done this for well over 20 years and experience has taught me
>>that if a list doesn't have some guidelines and restraints, it becomes
>>chaotic, and people leave.
>>Ultimately, there needs to be some tie in to blindness. Some off topic
>>discussion happens and is fine, but we will speak out if and when
>>things get out of hand.
>>At the risk of sounding like a dictator, or a jerk, this is not up for
>>debate. I have run our lists this way since 1991 with our first
>>dial-up bulletinboard system and it has worked.
>>I am sure there are many lists for discussion of general parenting
>concerns.
>>This one is for blind parents to discuss parenting from a blindness
>>perspective.
>>Hope that makes sense and isn't too rambling!
>>Dave
>>\\At 08:54 PM 5/20/2012, you wrote:
>>>I don't understand! I thought this list was for blind parents talking
>>>about topics of parenting whether it directly relates to our blindness
>>>or not. If we only talked about things that our blindness is related
>>>to, then our discussions would be quite limited as parents. My
>>>blindness is a part of who I am and not all of what I am. It would be
>>>pretty shallow of us to only discuss things that are connected to our
>>>blindness because that would leave out lots about who we are as people
>>>in
>>addition to who we are as parents.
>>>
>>>Erin
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>On Behalf Of Gabe Vega
>>>Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 1:41 PM
>>>To: Blind Parents Mailing List
>>>Subject: Re: [blparent] Pass the butter please!
>>>
>>>I thought about saying something but the last time I tried suggesting
>>>something was off topic, I was condemmed to 9 slashing with a spiked whip.
>>>
>>>On May 19, 2012, at 1:04 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>>
>>> > Come on everybody, you clearly know this is off topic -- so why do
>>> > you do
>>>it. Unless the margarine is blind it isn't for discussion here.
>>> >
>>> > Dave
>>> >
>>> > At 06:08 PM 5/17/2012, you wrote:
>>> >> So there are different types of Margarine but just one kind made
>>> >> in this way is enough to watch-out for the product and be more on
>>> >> the defense when purchasing such altered and man-made food items.
>>> >> I wasn't sending this out to everyone as gospel that we should
>>> >> hurry up and send out to everyone we know, but I merely found it
>>> >> interesting and thought how it's good to educate ourselves on how
>>> >> disgusting some of the "food" items are that companies expect us
>>> >> to eat which we do as a whole because we're too trusting. Just
>>> >> because something's being sold in a grocery store here in America
>>> >> doesn't mean we should eat it and if we base our purchases upon
>>> >> that state of mind, then we're in trouble. I truly and firmly
>>> >> believe that obesity is on the rise, not just because of people's
>>> >> poor eating habits and lack of exercise but it's also largely
>>> >> based on what's put into our foods and how things are processed
>>> >> and-or manufactured. The bottom line is that the more natural and
>>> >> less processed we get our foods the better and that's the only
>>> >> message I was sharing here. Of course there are a million
>>> >> different studies out there warning us against this and that,
>>>but have we ever seen a study that says that margarine is good for us?
>>>Just a thought.
>>> >>
>>> >> Erin
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> >> [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gabe Vega Via
>>> >> Iphone4S
>>> >> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 1:34 PM
>>> >> To: Blind Parents Mailing List
>>> >> Cc: Blind Parents Mailing List
>>> >> Subject: Re: [blparent] Pass the butter please!
>>> >>
>>> >> I like your line of thinking sir. Thank you for this well-written
>>>response.
>>> >> I knew that something being sold every day to everybody for years
>>> >> cannot be that bad and on the brink of killing us all.
>>> >>
>>> >> Gabe Vega
>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>> >> (623) 565-9357
>>> >>
>>> >> On May 17, 2012, at 12:24 PM, "Michael Baldwin"
>>> >> <mbaldwin at gpcom.net>
>>>wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > yeah real old, do a little more reading. It is kind of true, but
>>> >> > it depends on what margarine your looking at.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/butter-vs-margarine/AN00835
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/prevention/askdietician/margarine.
>>> >> > aspx
>>> >> >
>>> >> > http://www.snopes.com/food/warnings/butter.asp
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I really like the part about being one molecule away from being
>>>plastic.
>>> >> > Even a very slight change in the molecular structure of a
>>> >> > substance can make a huge difference. o2 is the oxygen we need
>>> >> > for life, but
>>> >> > o3 is ozone, which is considered poisonous. You going to stop
>>> >> > breathing because the oxygen you need to survive is 1 molecule
>>> >> > away
>>>from a poison?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Some would argue that all products containing vegetable oil are
>>> >> > bad for you, and you should only use lard and tallow for cooking.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > No matter what you decide to eat someone is going to come up
>>> >> > with some research that says it is bad for you.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > now if you want to be careful of something, watch out for
>>> >> > dihydrogen monoxide.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Michael
>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>> >> > From: blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> >> > [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> >> > On Behalf Of Erin Rumer
>>> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 12:33 PM
>>> >> > To: NFB blind parent listserv
>>> >> > Subject: [blparent] Pass the butter please!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Hello list,
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > This is some interesting and amazing facts about margarine and
>>> >> > butter that I thought you'd all like to read since we're always
>>> >> > concerned about putting the right things in our children's
>>> >> > mouths as well as our
>>> >> own.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Enjoy,
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Erin
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Margarine was originally manufactured to fatten turkeys. When it
>>> >> > killed the turkeys, the people who had put all the money into
>>> >> > the research wanted a payback so they put their heads together
>>> >> > to figure out what to do with this product to get their money back.
>>> >> > It was a white substance with no food appeal so they added the
>>> >> > yellow colouring and sold it to people to use in place of butter.
>>> >> > How do you like it? They have come out with some clever new
>>>flavourings....
>>> >> >
>>> >> > DO YOU KNOW.. The difference between margarine and butter?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Read on to the end...gets very interesting!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Both have the same amount of calories.
>>> >> > Butter is slightly higher in saturated fats at 8 grams;
>>> >> > compared to
>>> >> > 5 grams for margarine.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Eating margarine can increase heart disease in women by 53% over
>>> >> > eating the same amount of butter, according to a recent Harvard
>>> >> > Medical
>>> >> Study.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Eating butter increases the absorption of many other nutrients
>>> >> > in other foods.
>>> >> > Butter has many nutritional benefits where margarine has a few
>>> >> > and only because they are added!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Butter tastes much better than margarine and it can enhance the
>>> >> > flavours of other foods
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Butter has been around for centuries where margarine has been
>>> >> > around for less than 100 years.
>>> >> > And now, for Margarine.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Very High in Trans fatty acids.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Triples risk of coronary heart disease ...
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Increases total cholesterol and LDL (this is the bad
>>> >> > cholesterol) and lowers HDL cholesterol, (the good cholesterol)
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Increases the risk of cancers up to five times..
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Lowers quality of breast milk
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Decreases immune response.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Decreases insulin response.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > And here's the most disturbing fact... HERE IS THE PART THAT IS
>>> >> > VERY INTERESTING!
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Margarine is but ONE MOLECULE away from being PLASTIC... And
>>> >> > shares
>>> >> > 27 ingredients withPAINT These facts alone were enough to have
>>> >> > me avoiding margarine for life and anything else that is
>>> >> > hydrogenated (this means hydrogen is added, changing the
>>> >> > molecular structure of the
>>> >> substance).
>>> >> > Open a tub of margarine and leave it open in your garage or
>>> >> > shaded
>>>area.
>>> >> > Within a couple of days you will notice a couple of things:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > * no flies, not even those pesky fruit flies will go near it
>>> >> > (that should tell you something)
>>> >> >
>>> >> > * it does not rot or smell differently because it has no
>>> >> > nutritional value ; nothing will grow on it. Even those teeny
>>> >> > weeny microorganisms will not find a home to grow. Why? Because
>>> >> > it is nearly
>>>plastic .
>>> >> > Would you melt your Tupperware and spread that on your toast?
>>> >
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