[blparent] Independence and dependence - was Finding ticks on kids nonvisually?
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Thu Jul 18 15:32:55 UTC 2013
I will admit to assuming that someone would not agree to look for a tick if they didn't know what they looked like, but that could
well be a poor assumption. <smile> I think your point is very well taken that too often it is assumed that sight equates to
expertise and that isn't always the case.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:49:39 -0400, Star Gazer wrote:
>The assumption made in Steve's post (and maybe it was unintentional) is that
>a sighted person will know what a tick looks like by default. That
>information will have just fallen out of the sky and the sighted person
>would have sucked it up. This isn't necessarily true.
>Sight or lack of it doesn't transolate into a "yes-no" when it comes to
>information.
>I think that's important to keep in mind.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blparent [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>Jacobson
>Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 2:27 PM
>To: Blind Parents Mailing List
>Subject: [blparent] Independence and dependence - was Finding ticks on kids
>nonvisually?
>In one form or another, this topic of asking for help and what is
>independence comes up often on this list. It is a complex topic in many
>ways because there are so many factors to take into consideration. For
>example, we are not all the same as blind people, each of us having
>different sets of strengths and weaknesses. We have to take into account
>the feelings of the people who might be offering help. We have to consider
>that we grow up in a society that generally believes we can do less than we
>really can do. Finally, we are human, and it is generally easier to let
>someone else do those things that might challenge us whether we could carry
>out the task ourselves or not. I would like to put some thoughts down not
>because my approach is the only approach, but rather so we might discuss
>this a little and maybe even understand each other better.
>We will never live up to our potential if we limit ourselves to only doing
>those things society in general things we can do. We probably wouldn't be
>parents if we did that since much of society doesn't believe we can raise
>kids. If you don't think that is true, try adopting kids as a single blind
>parent or as a blind couple. My experience was as half of a blind couple.
>By definition, the lack of society's belief in what we can do will mean that
>we will all likely do things that some of those around us don't think we
>should be doing. We can't really allow our boundaries to be set by others,
>without gaining some understanding of how accurate their vision is of what
>blind people can do. The average blind person is, in my experience, more
>knowledgeable of what blind people can do than is the average sighted
>person. In that sense, I don't think getting advice from a blind person and
>from a sighted person are really the same. One has to be aware of their
>backgrounds. I would hasten to add that it should never be assumed that
>sighted people have nothing to offer. It is fortunately not that simple. I
>have learned a good deal from sighted people, and they can provide very
>useful input because of having vision that can be valuable. In addition,
>there are certainly things that can be done more easily with vision, and
>there are tasks that require vision. I've also known blind people who have
>no belief in other blind people, whose advice would be questionable. There
>is another category of blind people who are quite capable, but who tend to
>believe that if they cannot do a given thing it can't be done by blind
>people.
>The value of their advice is mixed.
>Still, I believe it is accurate to say that most sighted people are most
>comfortable helping by performing a task themselves so we don't have to do
>it. Teaching us to perform a given task is likely going to take longer, and
>not everyone is a natural teacher. Sometimes, the only way we know whether
>we can do a given thing is to try it. This means that we will try and
>occasionally fail, or succeed with mixed results. I believe it is very
>important that we figure out how sighted friends and family members can
>assist us to learn by providing feedback that can help us refine a new skill
>and not just take care of various tasks for us.
>Finally, what each of us can do and what we need done for us isn't goiing to
>be the same for all of us. We will never know what we can do, though,
>without trying things. Every single thing that we do as blind people had to
>be done for the first time by someone, and they were probably criticized for
>trying to be too independent when they tried. There is such a bias in
>society toward us being helpless that when trying something new, it is far
>more likely that we will succeed with a little practice than that we will
>seek to do something that is unattainable.
>So it is fine to theorize about all this, but should we be experimenting
>when it involves the safety of our kids? Certainly we have to think about
>how learning to do something affects our kids. It would be irresponsible to
>think otherwise. I would maintain, though, that sometimes there are
>trade-offs that he have to consider. First, it is a myth to think that just
>by being a sighted parent, all safety issues are resolved. For example, one
>of the biggest challenges in raising young children are medical concerns.
>There are ear infections, bad colds, worries about pneumonia, rashes, and on
>and on. If you think about it, parents with a medical background are going
>to recognize certain things more quickly than are parents without a medical
>background. That doesn't mean that we decide that only persons with medical
>backgrounds be allowed to care for small children. We know that parents
>without medical backgrounds have to figure out when they can deal with a
>problem and when they need help. We are not that different.
>Let's look quickly at this tick example, for instance. On the surface, the
>safest thing to do for our kids is to have a sighted friend drop what they
>are doing and come over and look for ticks after a day at a camp. On that
>particular day, it would be difficult to argue that isn't the safest
>approach if a blind parent has never done that before. However, what
>happens when a sighted person is not available? What happens if at another
>time, the sighted person who is available isn't particularly careful about
>the inspection? The point here is that if we learn to look for ticks
>ourselves and we make use of a sighted friend to help us learn rather than
>to just perform the task, our kids are actually going to be safer in the
>long run. It's not just about being independent, it's about what makes
>sense.
>So do we lay down one set of rules for everyone? Of course not, but neither
>do we have no expectations of one another. While I believe there is no
>reason a blind person cannot learn to look for ticks, I recognize that there
>are people who may have less sensitive fingertips making the job much
>tougher or even impossible. So while I might be justified in saying that
>blindness is not a reason that one cannot inspect for ticks, I have to
>realize that there may sometimes be other factors or even disabilities that
>complicate the question. In my opinion, though, it would be wrong for us to
>use the fact that there could be other factors to have no expectations at
>all, to assume that as blind parents we cannot find ticks. It is certainly
>true that we need to understand our limitations. Care needs to be taken,
>though, to not let our limitations be set by someone else or by what might
>be convenient in the short term. What do you think?
>Best regards,
>Steve Jacobson
>On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 18:46:21 -0600, Veronica Smith wrote:
>>I know what your saying. It is what it is, if we have someone to ask
>>for advice, that's okay, it's the same if we have another blind person to
>ask.
>>All is good.
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blparent [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gabe
>>Vega Via Iphone4S
>>Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:02 PM
>>To: Blind Parents Mailing List
>>Cc: Blind Parents Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [blparent] Finding ticks on kids nonvisually?
>>I don't think anybody is advocating dependency on sighted people. But
>>don't be afraid, to admit or to want or need help from a side person
>>when the situation calls for it. There are many blind people who
>>absolutely refuse and condemn receiving help from sighted people.
>>That's all I brought this conversation too was to not be afraid I'm not
>>fear asking for help when needed by side of person. They could be
>>useful at times
>>Gabe Vega
>>Sent from my iPhone
>>CEO
>>Commtech LLC
>>The leader of computer support, training and web development services
>>Web: http://commtechusa.net
>>Twitter: http://twitter.com/commtechllc
>>Facebook: http://facebook.com/commtechllc
>>Email: info at commtechusa.net
>>Phone: (888) 351-5289 Ext. 710
>>Fax: (480) 535-7649
>>On Jul 11, 2013, at 6:57 PM, "Veronica Smith" <madison_tewe at spinn.net>
>>wrote:
>>> Michelle, sometimes our sighted friends think their way is the best,
>>> but
>>we,
>>> blind mom and dads, know better.
>>> I used to think I should ask my sighted neighbors to help with this
>>> and that, but as I got more comfortable with doing it all myself, I
>>> didn't as them.
>>> Of course, reading print, then I do need the help.
>>> However, the internet has solved many of those problems I had.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blparent [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Michelle Creedy
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 4:45 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Parents Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [blparent] Finding ticks on kids nonvisually?
>>>
>>> Totally agreed Steve. Of course I'd do the looking first. In no way
>>> did I want to suggest that I'd ask someone for information I didn't
>>> think I
>>could
>>> find. It was merely a thought. I'd probably myself not necessarily
>>> bother
>>to
>>> ask someone but not knowing the person I was responding to I thought
>>> why
>>not
>>> just throw all the ideas out there and let them pick. It honestly
>>> didn't really occur to me to turn it into a whole philosophy session.
>>>
>>> Not only am I new at all this but I'm obviously from a very very very
>>> different way of thinking so I think I'll just keep to asking very
>>> straight-forward questions on the list. Thanks for your comments.
>>>
>>>
>>> Michelle
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blparent [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 3:00 PM
>>> To: Blind Parents Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blparent] Finding ticks on kids nonvisually?
>>>
>>> Michelle,
>>>
>>> Probably in part because I agree wit her, I don't see where she made
>>> any blanket statements. I think it is very important as blind
>>> parents and
>>blind
>>> people that we are careful to explore our own capabilities before we
>>assume
>>> that a sighted person is automatically more capable than we are to
>>> handle
>>a
>>> given situation. While you did not specifically say that this was
>>> the
>>case,
>>> you did seem to be predisposed in your note to having your friends
>>> gather information for you even though you are using that information
>>> to make
>>your
>>> own decisions. I would submit that you don't have to be a nurse or
>>> even sighted to find a tick on a child. If one is wondering if they
>>> found
>>ticks,
>>> I don't see any problem with having a sighted friend verify to help a
>>> new parent build confidence, but to me, this process just isn't aht
>>mysterious.
>>> We do share idease on this list, but it's also reasonable to share
>>> the
>>pros
>>> and the cons of various approaches,.
>>>
>>> As new parents, we are going to lack experience and we will need some
>>help.
>>> Some of that help we can get by talking to experts and with friends
>>> as
>>well
>>> as people here. Remember, though, that your friends are not
>>> necessarily going to know what you are capable of doing, so one has
>>> to walk a sort of fine line of using there expertise as a way to
>>> learn what you can do
>>rather
>>> than as a factor that might limit what you believe you can do. For
>>example,
>>> if you had a friend you feel you could count on for help and you had
>>> a
>>child
>>> in a day camp, my suggestion would be to check for ticks yourself,
>>> and if you didn't feel confident have your friend check as well. If
>>> your friend found a tick that you missed, that doesn't prove that you
>>> need to have someone else check your child, but rather, that there is
>>> more you need to learn about finding ticks. You could use such a
>>> circumstance as a means
>>to
>>> learn what it was that caused you to miss the tick. Maybe it was
>>somewhere
>>> that you didn't look or it was smaller than you expected or
>>> something. To me, there is a big difference between having a friend
>>> gather information
>>and
>>> using a friend to help you learn to gether the information. I am
>>> saying
>>all
>>> of this not to be critical of what you said, but because from what
>>> you
>>have
>>> said, you are very early in this process and some of this may not be
>>obvious
>>> and this is a way those of us who have been through this can be of
>>> some
>>kind
>>> of help. One has to always consider that one will have to make
>>> decisions
>>in
>>> the absence of even good friends because they can't always be there,
>>> so
>>one
>>> has to develop one's abilities as much as possible, but fortunately,
>>> our limitations tend to be smaller than we think when we're starting out.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Thu, 11 Jul 2013 12:09:53 -0700, Michelle Creedy wrote:
>>>
>>>> Great suggestions. I encourage you to be careful about making
>>>> blanket statements and assumptions about people you don't know and
>>>> likely will never meet. Your ideas are good ones but be careful.
>>>
>>>> Of course I'd know bumps that were not there before and guess who
>>>> found the ticks on the horses first? We had quite a lot of them in
>>>> Africa. We all have techniques that we use and maybe some of them
>>>> are not what others would use but the beauty of this list is that we
>>>> share the techniques and if they werk they work. If someone doesn't
>>>> like them don't use them. It's all a matter of making choices that
>>>> you can live
>>with.
>>> I'm simply throwing out ideas.
>>>
>>>> Michelle
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blparent [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Star Gazer
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 11:53 AM
>>>> To: 'Blind Parents Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [blparent] Finding ticks on kids nonvisually?
>>>
>>>> You will be in much closer contact with any kids you have then you
>>>> will with your horses.
>>>> It's fine to use your friends, my concern with your post is that you
>>>> are already hading over your power. Ticks feel like bumps that
>>>> shouldn't be there. You as the mom will know things about your kids
>>>> that professional people in any capacity simply can't know. Don't
>>>> let other people define the relationship you have with your children.
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blparent [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Michelle Creedy
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 9:17 PM
>>>> To: 'Blind Parents Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [blparent] Finding ticks on kids nonvisually?
>>>
>>>> I too was going to suggest a sighted person to check. I have a
>>>> couple of friends who are nurses and plan on using their expertees
>>>> when I have children. I guess for me, it's about having that
>>>> conversation with the person so that they understand that you simply
>>>> need them to give you information with their eyes that you are
>>>> having trouble perceiving. I always let them know that in the end, I
>>>> will make the decisions on what to do with that information.
>>>
>>>> I have two miniature horses and the one's eye runs a lot. I often
>>>> rely on the vision shared by others to let me know when it is really
>>>> infected. I decide on the course of treatments but they give me that
>>info.
>>>
>>>> Michelle
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blparent [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Gabe Vega Via Iphone4S
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>> To: Blind Parents Mailing List
>>>> Cc: Blind Parents Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [blparent] Finding ticks on kids nonvisually?
>>>
>>>> I'm glad you are registered in finding this out. I am very happy to
>>>> see that you are not militant and insistent on having yourselves
>>>> only do it and possibly letting a set of person do it. I wish we had
>>>> more like you. I wish I knew the answer or what to tell you, but I
>>>> don't. I never had to do this before. But thank you for the breath
>>>> of fresh air, in the understanding that sometimes, just sometimes we
>>>> might need aside a person or two in our lives to help us just
>>>
>>>> Gabe Vega
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> CEO
>>>> Commtech LLC
>>>> The leader of computer support, training and web development
>>>> services
>>>> Web: http://commtechusa.net
>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/commtechllc
>>>> Facebook: http://facebook.com/commtechllc
>>>> Email: info at commtechusa.net
>>>> Phone: (888) 351-5289 Ext. 710
>>>> Fax: (480) 535-7649
>>>
>>>> On Jul 9, 2013, at 12:34 PM, "Melissa Ann Riccobono"
>>>> <melissa at riccobono.us>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> Our son, Austin, is at a nature day camp this week. He is having
>>>>> tons of fun, but this morning he told me that his counselors told
>>>>> him to have his parents check him for ticks each night when he comes
>home.
>>>>> This makes sense to me, but I admit this is something I have never
>>>>> done before. Is there a way to check nonvisually for a tick on your
>>> child?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for any thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Melissa
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. We certainly have sighted friends/neighbors who can help with
>>>>> this, but I was curious if this is something Mark and I could do
>>>> ourselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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