I know nothing of any of these options that you all speak of. As a parent of a 6 year old who is blind and his twin who could go blind at some point, all this discussion is incredibly important. I don't just want the sugar coated stuff. I want the nitty-gritty on what it will be like, so as I strive to educate my children, I can work to teach them about discrimination and how to deal with it. Let me tell you in Connecticut, services for the blind stop working with parents and ignore their wishes once their children reach school age. Up until then they were great. Maine on the other hand allows services to blind children who are home schooled and I am the coordinator of services for providers. Trust me, the school doesn't want my child, who would be a great financial burden to them. I have worked so hard in addition to my MS in Special Ed. to learn how he learns. I can't imagine, flushing him into public school. Now that said, keep the dialogues coming, so we all can learn. We aren't all going to agree, but we can respect and dialogue with each other. Through crisis comes change. Through discussion, good or bad, comes education! Keep TALKING!<div>
<br></div><div>Blessings,</div><div>Sue H.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Nathanael T. Wales <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ntwales@omsoft.com" target="_blank">ntwales@omsoft.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" lang="EN-US" vlink="purple" link="blue">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">
<div>Trevor,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thank you for your excellent post. I greatly appreciate your
thoughts.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In the context of “<font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt" color="#1f497d">equating the
ignorance and discrimination surrounding our issue of sub-minimum wages with
genocide and brutal enslavement”, </font>I realize now that you are correct that
drawing this comparison does strike “<font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt" color="#1f497d">up peoples emotional alarms” and is unhelpful. I also regret
if you took what I was saying to point to “a sign of an impending Hitler”; I
certainly did not intend to, and I know that Rich stated explicitly that he was
not pointing to one. I do, however, stand by my point that subminimum
wages versus what the Nazis and English colonists (and many other horrific
regimes have done and are still doing) “</font><font face="Times New Roman">are
both predicated upon the same belief that some human life is less valuable than
other human life”. The former is just far tamer, more acceptable, and
seemingly balanced--and in 99% of examples portends nothing worse to
come.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Finally, I agree very much with your penultimate point that “...<font style="FONT-SIZE:11pt" color="#1f497d">Think of it this way, we the blind
purchase items all the time that are products of war and brutal labor
conditions. Maybe we can think of ourselves as part of that puzzle...”. I
will never forget how embarrassed I was when having dinner with a fellow
parishioner from Stratford who works on a multitude of social justice issues
(and is a supporter of our Goodwill boycott) when telling him about how great
Apple products are for accessibility for the blind and he replying that Apple
products are made in sweatshops in China.</font></div>
<div style="font-size:small;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:'Calibri';display:inline;font-weight:normal">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma">
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">Best,</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri">Nathanael</font></div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="tattenberg@gmail.com" href="mailto:tattenberg@gmail.com" target="_blank">Trevor Attenberg</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 10, 2012 6:52 PM</div><div class="im">
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="ct-nfb@nfbnet.org" href="mailto:ct-nfb@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">'NFB
of Connecticut Mailing List'</a> </div>
</div><div><div class="h5"><div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ct-nfb] Can you stop using this forum for your
personalopinion sand negativity</div></div></div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="font-size:small;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:'Calibri';display:inline;font-weight:normal"><div><div class="h5">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Hey.
I for one am glad Deb brought up the question about the ACB. While I myself
encountered the NFB before I was aware of the ACB, many many folks in the NFB
encouraged me and others to check out what the ACB is about. Like I said in my
previous message, there are items that the two organizations agree upon, and
many of us long-time federationists have good friends in the ACB. Many of us
collaborated with ACB members or even participated in ACB dominated
institutions. On the other hand, when you examine the bulk of political stances
and philosophical positions taken by the two organizations, the contrast can be
stunning.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Of
course many members in either organization have not yet gotten deeply entrenched
enough with the respective politics or blindness philosophies so as to take such
dichotomy very seriously. Many of us are on the fence; but as institutions, the
NFB and ACB sometimes make Dems and Reps look like old-time buddies. As a list
serve that is supposed to represent what the NFB stands for and the work we do,
I don’t feel we should shrug away from controversies that arise from the
differences we have with other organizations. It’s all part of the
struggle.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">As
I’ve been a part of the NFB for over ten years now, I’m obviously partial to the
federation’s philosophy, and I may have a skewed prospective on which
organization is needlessly bashing the other. The research I’ve done on the ACB
seems to reveal an organization that devotes a lot of literature and
decision-making time towards antagonizing the NFB (this sound clip we heard is a
small example). Justin and Nathanael can likely attest to this first hand. Of
course I’ve met long time members on both sides that bemoan the fact the two
organizations basically agreed to constantly disagree. In addition, I know folks
on the NFB side that sometimes get really out of hand with trashing the ACB;
making general statements that attack the personalities and lifestyles of
all/most ACB members. None of that kind of thing is productive, and indeed the
two organizations would do best to collaborate whenever this is philosophically
permissible. We’re all human beings that face very similar struggles on a day to
day basis, and thus we can probably agree to more things than we actually
do.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">A
fairly minor example of where the two organizations disagree occurred during the
ACB’s legal suit to make paper money tactily accessible. While I don’t think the
NFB totally opposed the idea of tactily accessible money, it opposed the suit
because it believed the ACB’s approach, and the attention it would all bring to
blind people would not be helpful in making the blind seem like responsible and
capable workers and self-managers. Indeed the lawsuit brought quite a bit of
dubious attention to the blind community. We had radio and TV interviews of
totally un-trained or poorly trained blind people that talked about how they
couldn’t manage money altogether, or the only way they could tell their bills
apart was through putting different denominations in totally different parts of
their outfit, like their socks. It made me cringe. Not only have I been able to
organize money in my own wallet since childhood, I happen to know countless
examples of blind people that work directly with paper money as business owners,
clerks and treasurers. As Chris alluded to, the NFB really works to evoke a
positive visage of blindness rather than making the blind look needy and craving
special accommodations.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Another
major philosophical difference the NFB and ACB have concerns training. Like a
number of you, I attended the Carol Center (Sorry, I’m not looking up how to
spell it just now) in Massachusetts. While most of the staff at the Center were
fully sighted, the blind staff/faculty I encountered there were ACB members, and
from what I gathered, the center seemed to reflect an ACB philosophy. I went
there in 2004 about a year after graduating from the NFB sponsored Louisiana
Center for the Blind. While the brief computer training I received at the Carol
center was quite effective (I went there for a college prep course on JAWS and
Windows), the conditions students there faced seemed atrociously custodial.
Students had curfews and had to get permission to walk between buildings without
sited escort—at least at night. Attitudes towards cane use was lax at best.
While there was O&M instruction, I rarely encountered people using canes
otherwise, especially once training was done. All or most dining was done in a
cafeteria, where students were asked to put aside their canes, and be given a
sighted guide through where food was served and to a seat at a table. The only
place at the LCB where we regularly departed with our canes was in the kitchen,
where our hands were full of greasiness, we had gotten thoroughly oriented with
the landscape before work, and we weren’t really walking anywhere beyond a
couple of steps. At the Carol center by contrast, I was made fun of and
ridiculed by other students for my regular and insistent cane use. They
called me Moses</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">J</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">. I
think they should’ve called me Gandhi; but I didn’t take this treatment in a
really gracious or Gandhi-like fashion unfortunately. In addition, I saw so many
students just sitting around complaining about their blindness, reflecting on
the good-old days when they had sight, and anxiously anticipating some kind of
cure. While such attitudes are understandable, especially among those that
recently lost their sight; I was just shocked at the lack of positive input
here. At the LCB we had people like this; but they were always helped along by
capable and optimistic blind staff and students; and eventually the spells would
be broken. I did meet a couple of staff members at the Carol Center who
expressed concern over the center’s lax cane-use standards; and the president of
the center did speak at the NFB of Massachusetts a couple of years ago,
suggesting that the place indeed upgraded their training. Maybe things have
changed. If not, I really wouldn’t recommend the place as a full-fledged adult
rehabilitation option.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">
Experiences like this truly helped me develop a sense of the contrast different
blindness-related philosophical constructs have. The different views people have
towards blindness do really have an impact, and it affected me in a way I did
not foresee. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">
Lastly, in the context of sub-minimum wages, I agree we are dealing with an
incredibly important issue that not only impacts the way people perceive the
blind, but also pertains to people’s livelihoods and ability to become active
members of society. Sub-minimum wages are discriminatory, and make permanent
second class citizens of the blind; thus effecting our own security. On the
other hand, we really should consider scale in our rhetoric. While people’s
ability to turn a blind eye as it were, and do extreme bad as well as extreme
good is astonishing; equating the ignorance and discrimination surrounding our
issue of sub-minimum wages with genocide and brutal enslavement is a bit over
the top to say the least. While it may have value in an elaborate discussion
geared exclusively towards security, social awareness, and the genesis of great
injustice , it really doesn’t do us much good in this context, and will
only strike up peoples emotional alarms. Think of it this way, we the blind
purchase items all the time that are products of war and brutal labor
conditions. Maybe we can think of ourselves as part of that puzzle, and not our
condition as a sign of an impending Hitler.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Always
yours,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Trevor
A.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"> Ct-nfb
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ct-nfb-bounces@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">ct-nfb-bounces@nfbnet.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Deb Reed<br><b>Sent:</b>
Saturday, November 10, 2012 6:56 AM<br><b>To:</b> NFB of Connecticut Mailing
List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ct-nfb] Can you stop using this forum for your
personal opinionsand negativity<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Everyone,<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am not sorry that I posed my questions as that is the only
way to learn and that I surely have done. Thanks to all who provided this
information on two organizations I was not familiar with. I am still a new NFB
member so I am soaking it all in.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt" class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Edward <<a href="mailto:personal.edward@gmail.com" target="_blank">personal.edward@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello<br><br>While the negativity is not constructive,
discussion of the ACB, or any<br>other organization that relates to blindness,
should be aloud to continue on<br>the list. I believe the list should be
used to talk about any subject<br>relating to blindness, as long as it's
appropriate for all ages to read, and<br>until such time that the
list's traffic becomes too convoluted. It's not<br>like the list has been
inundated with responses, or has been too difficult<br>to follow.<br><br>Just my
opinion,<br>Edward<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Ct-nfb [mailto:<a href="mailto:ct-nfb-bounces@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">ct-nfb-bounces@nfbnet.org</a>] On Behalf
Of Sandee Kush<br>Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:50 PM<br>To: 'NFB of
Connecticut Mailing List'<br>Subject: [Ct-nfb] Can you stop using this forum for
your personal<br>opinionsand negativity<br><br>Those of you having the ACB
discussion relative to the HR, would it be<br>possible for you to 1,
Develop a group email to converse back and forth?<br>2. Once again, email
the person directly that you want to debate or<br>whatever 3. Create
a blog<br><br>I am sure I speak for many of those on the list serve.
Personally, I am<br>revising my opinion of people based on their comments,
developing concern<br>about leadership skills and just plain bewildered that
anyone thinks this is<br>a constructive dialogue.<br><br>Please do not respond
to me on the List serve.<br>And please...stop the "public" debate.<br>Thank
you.<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Ct-nfb [mailto:<a href="mailto:ct-nfb-bounces@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">ct-nfb-bounces@nfbnet.org</a>] On Behalf
Of ntwales<br>Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 12:19 PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:ct-nfb@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">ct-nfb@nfbnet.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [Ct-nfb]
FW: ACB Resolution on H.R. 3086<br><br>Rich - Thank you for your excellent
message.<br>Chris - I couldn't disagree with you more on several points.
First, though,<br>I should state that, like Justin, I too received a national
scholarship from<br>ACB while an undergrad and attended their national
convention. I did meet<br>many pleasant, articulate, and successful
members there--and most were<br>pleasant and welcoming to me even though they
knew clearly that I was an NFB<br>member. I spoke a couple of months later
with President Maurer about this,<br>and he was glad I went, and he showed no
animosoty towards the ACB during<br>our conversation. Also before moving
to Connecticut, as an NFB leader in<br>California I worked closely with ACB
leaders on a handful of joint issues,<br>including establishing a separate
rehabilitation agency for the blind and<br>increasing availability of public
transit, and I found everyone pleasant to<br>work with and, on other matters
such as the level of access to public rights<br>of way, pleasant to disagree
with. Now:<br>1. You wrote, "I've met people at national convention who
are members of<br>both NFB and ACB--although Dr. Maurer [you gave him the title
doctor; he<br>himself does not and I endeavor not to; his brother interestingly
enough<br>holds a doctorate] would certainly excommunicate them if he found
out."<br>While President Maurer would support excommunicating these dual
members, it<br>isn't about him. The NFB constitution forbids such dual
membership. This<br>is an organizational constitutional matter, and I
think most members would<br>agree that, just like you can't be registered as a
Republican and a<br>Democrat, you can't be a dual member--and, as we practiced
at our state<br>convention, our NFB could vote to change that about our
constitution if we<br>ever changed our minds.<br>2. You wrote, "ACB's decision
not to support HR 3086 is hardly comparable to<br>Hitler gassing the Jews or the
English exterminating Native Americans."<br>While Hitler gasing the Jews (he
also gased the<br>disabled) and the English killing Native Americans on their
face seem like<br>extreme examples, they are both predicated upon the same
belief that some<br>human life is less valuable than other human life. ACB
deliberating to be<br>silent is more properly comparable to those in Nazi
Germany who remained<br>silent while the Holocaust went on around them, while
trains and marches of<br>prisoners passed their towns and woods and
churches. How Nazi Germany rose<br>to such power personally fascinates me,
and maybe we've heard a small<br>insight into how. Who will be left to
stand up for the ACB...<br>3. You mention the statistic that few blind people
are paid less than the<br>minimum wage under the infamous Section 14(c).
This is a tired argument,<br>and with Rich's public admission I now know of
three NFB of CT leaders who<br>were devalued by this provision. And it's
not just Goodwill, of course,<br>like Semens and Phillips weren't the only users
of concentration camp labor<br>in Nazi Germany, but they are the worst--they'd
have you think they're a<br>charity! The other two NFB of CT members were
devalued at shops not<br>affiliated with Goodwill. Knowing so many blind
people who have been<br>devalued by this provision, in the context of this clip
from the ACB<br>convention I, as a thoughtful Republican and regular viewer of
Fox News (I<br>knew it was over when they called it for Obama!), will never
think of the<br>99% and the 1% the same way
again...<br>Best,<br>Nathanael<br><br>On 09.11.2012 11:03, Richard McGaffin
wrote:<br>> --- On wrote:<br>><br>>> From: Chris Kuell <<a href="mailto:ckuell@comcast.net" target="_blank">ckuell@comcast.net</a>><br>>> Subject:
Re: [Ct-nfb] FW: ACB Resolution on H.R. 3086<br>>> To: "NFB of Connecticut
Mailing List" <<a href="mailto:ct-nfb@nfbnet.org" target="_blank">ct-nfb@nfbnet.org</a>><br>>> Date:
Friday, November 9, 2012, 8:33 AM<br>>><br>>> I know many ACB
members who are capable, competent blind people.<br>>> They believe in
independence, Braille, and the right of all blind<br>>> people to become
active members in the workplace and society. Marcia<br>>> dresser, who
used to live in Connecticut and was the first VP of the<br>>> ACB here,
worked with us to help pass a Braille bill back in 1999. I<br>>> was on
several BESB committees with her, and I admire Marcia and her<br>>>
husband Steve, also blind and an active ACB member, very much. I've<br>>>
met people at national convention who are members of both NFB and<br>>>
ACB--although Dr. Maurer would certainly excommunicate them if he<br>>>
found out. Again, these are capable, competent, admirable blind<br>>>
people, who are networking and not judging people by affiliation,
but<br>>> rather by character.<br>>><br>>> I see the ACB and
NFB as completely analogous to republicans and<br>>> democrats. Both
groups have a vision for our country, but they have<br>>> different ideas
on how to get there. Neither side is evil, although I<br>>> have my doubts
about the folks at Fox news, but for some reason,<br>>> people get fired
up when they feel they have an enemy, which is how<br>>> far too many
NFBers and ACBers react. I've studied both<br>>> organizations, and choose
to be an NFB member because I think our<br>>> philosophy best matches my
own personality. But I don't think the ACB<br>>> is wrong, just different.
I would summarize this way: The NFB wants<br>>> training and opportunities
for blind people, while the ACB wants<br>>> understanding and
accommodations.<br>>><br>>> I listened to the ACB audio clip, twice,
and I find it fascinating<br>>> how different people react to the same
stimuli. I didn't hear any<br>>> slamming of the NFB, I just heard a
single sentence saying 'it's an<br>>> NFB bill'. The sentence wasn't said
with love or enthusiasm, and in<br>>> fact probably held a little disdain,
but I certainly wouldn't call it<br>>> slamming.<br>>><br>>>
ACB's decision not to support HR 3086 is hardly comparable to Hitler<br>>>
gassing the Jews or the English exterminating Native Americans. It's<br>>>
a decision based on facts, math, and mission. NIB doesn't pay blind<br>>>
workers below minimum wage. Good will does, but by my<br>>>
calculation,it's very few blind people. The large majority of the
few<br>>> hundred disabled workers who receive below minimum wage
are<br>>> multi-disabled, almost all with severe cognitive disabilities.
And<br>>> the small percentage of blind people who are included in this
class<br>>> are also multi-disabled, with blindness the least of their
troubles.<br>>> Traditionally, the NFB has not fought on behalf of
other<br>>> disabilities, and DR. Maurer himself told me personally that
'it<br>>> dilutes our message'. The NFB has decided to fight on behalf
of<br>>> people with other disabilities in taking on HR 3086, while the
ACB<br>>> has decided that they won't. It's not evil, it's simply a
different<br>>> viewpoint.<br>>><br>>> Deb, are you sorry you
asked? Smile.<br>>><br>>> chris<br>>><br>>>
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