[Electronics-talk] Electronics-talk Digest, Accessible tvs

Tue Apr 17 10:20:34 UTC 2012

One word. Apple. How many people are using iPads / iPhones etc. to read
through this list or reply to message threads? Why is it that blind users
are now able to use a phone with a touch-screen that was once seen as
completely inaccessible to us? Well, I'd say the answer to that question had
nothing to do with sitting around complaining. We took action, and we got
results! If we don't try to change things, nothing will happen. The same
goes with TVs. Why not start with U.S. based companies?

Chelsey

-----Original Message-----
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electronics-talk-request at nfbnet.org
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 7:00 PM
To: electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: Electronics-talk Digest, Vol 72, Issue 14

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: tv's (Jude DaShiell)
   2. Re: tv's (Jim Barbour)
   3. Re: tv's (Christopher Chaltain)
   4. Re: tv's (Gerald Levy)
   5. my experiences with android (tina birenbaum)
   6. Re: tv's (JULIE PHILLIPSON)
   7. Re: tv's (Tony Sohl)
   8. Re: tv's (Gene Coulter)
   9. Re: tv's (Tony Sohl)
  10. Re: tv's (cheez)
  11. Re: tv's (cheez)
  12. Re: for kay, who just got zello (Kaye)
  13. Re: tv's (Jim Barbour)
  14. Re: Getting Email Addresses was Re:  for kay,	who just got
      zello (Kaye)
  15. Re: tv's (Kaye)
  16. Re: tv's (Kaye)
  17. Re: tv's (cheez)
  18. Effective accessibility advocacy [was "Re: tv's"]
      (Christopher Chaltain)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:09:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID:
	<alpine.BSF.2.01.1204151305500.7216 at freire1.furyyjbeyq.arg>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone 
of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only 
reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal 
investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are 
actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being 
zero.

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

> In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could say the
> US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because with
> businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to tell and
> less important to determine where creativity comes from geographically.
> With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
> UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come from
> somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
> 
> My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
> don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for corporations was
> solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
> revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
> corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to their
> close links with the English government. That's why the original US
> corporations were so business focused, and their links to the government
> were kept tenuous.
> 
> I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I suspect
> that most corporations and especially international or transnational
> corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a monopoly
> on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
> economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
> engaged in philanthropic missions.
> 
> On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this planet.

> > In some countries a little of the original purpose for corporations is 
> > chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third 
> > priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The first 
> > thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about 
> > corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go 
> > figure.
> > 
> > On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
> > 
> >> AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER DEVICES AS
IT IS
> >> SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U S HAS
LOST
> >> ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
> >> THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
> >> <deniserob at gmail.com>
> >> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
> >> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
> >>
> >>
> >>> Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
> >>>
http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews/Pages
/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
> >>> <timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater
systems
> >>>> with them?
> 
> 

----------------------------------------------------------------
Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
<http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 10:46:09 -0700
From: Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com>
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID: <246E238E-5E2E-494A-AF2E-D2322FD8F2BF at barcore.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii

I just started reading this thread. What does this message have to do with
tvs or electronics?
Jim 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 15, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net> wrote:

> So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone 
> of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only 
> reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal 
> investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are 
> actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being 
> zero.
> 
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> 
>> In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could say the
>> US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because with
>> businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to tell and
>> less important to determine where creativity comes from geographically.
>> With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
>> UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come from
>> somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
>> 
>> My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
>> don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for corporations was
>> solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
>> revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
>> corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to their
>> close links with the English government. That's why the original US
>> corporations were so business focused, and their links to the government
>> were kept tenuous.
>> 
>> I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I suspect
>> that most corporations and especially international or transnational
>> corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a monopoly
>> on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
>> economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
>> engaged in philanthropic missions.
>> 
>> On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>> Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this planet.

>>> In some countries a little of the original purpose for corporations is 
>>> chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third 
>>> priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The first 
>>> thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about 
>>> corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go 
>>> figure.
>>> 
>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
>>> 
>>>> AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER DEVICES AS
IT IS
>>>> SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U S HAS
LOST
>>>> ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
>>>> THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
>>>> <deniserob at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
>>>>>
http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews/Pages
/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
>>>>> <timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater
systems
>>>>>> with them?
>> 
>> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-talk mailing list
> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Electronics-talk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore
.com
> 

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 14:35:54 -0500
From: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID: <4F8B231A.8000702 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

My understanding of this thread is that you're screwed if you're a blind
TV watcher in the US because:
* Americans aren't as creative as they used to be.
* American corporations put profit ahead of solving public problems,
unlike corporations elsewhere in the world.
* More and more TV's are coming from Chinese companies now, who don't
care about American consumers and who don't care about making accessible
products.

Note that I don't agree with any of the above, and I'd rather not see
such political and unfounded statements made on a list intended to talk
about the accessibility of consumer electronics, although I understand
everyone has an opinion and the right to voice it. I also don't agree
with the implication that we're living in a time that's so bleak or
hopeless for the blind TV watcher. Technology and legislation is in
place now where we could see a dramatic increase in the accessibility of
smart TV's and advanced set top boxes. Of course, we won't see these
improvements if we just assume that it's hopeless and don't even try.

On 15/04/12 12:46, Jim Barbour wrote:
> I just started reading this thread. What does this message have to do with
tvs or electronics?
> Jim 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Apr 15, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
wrote:
> 
>> So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone 
>> of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only 
>> reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal 
>> investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are 
>> actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being 
>> zero.
>>
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>>
>>> In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could say the
>>> US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because with
>>> businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to tell and
>>> less important to determine where creativity comes from geographically.
>>> With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
>>> UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come from
>>> somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
>>>
>>> My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
>>> don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for corporations was
>>> solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
>>> revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
>>> corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to their
>>> close links with the English government. That's why the original US
>>> corporations were so business focused, and their links to the government
>>> were kept tenuous.
>>>
>>> I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I suspect
>>> that most corporations and especially international or transnational
>>> corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a monopoly
>>> on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
>>> economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
>>> engaged in philanthropic missions.
>>>
>>> On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>>> Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this planet.

>>>> In some countries a little of the original purpose for corporations is 
>>>> chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third 
>>>> priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The first

>>>> thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about 
>>>> corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go 
>>>> figure.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER DEVICES AS
IT IS
>>>>> SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U S
HAS LOST
>>>>> ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
>>>>> THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
>>>>> <deniserob at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>>>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
>>>>>>
http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews/Pages
/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
>>>>>> <timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater
systems
>>>>>>> with them?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
>> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Electronics-talk:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore
.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-talk mailing list
> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Electronics-talk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gma
il.com

-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at gmail.com

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 16:31:42 -0400
From: "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited at verizon.net>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID: <638096A8EE3C42BDB90CF2F665E38ACD at glevy>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	reply-type=original

The problem with these accessibility initiatives is that they lack real 
substance.  What if a manufacture refuses to abide by the law and make their

electronic products blind accessible?  Are their executives going to be 
aggressivley prosecuted and thrown in jail?  Of course not.  Their companies

will merely be forced to pay nominal fines and go about their business. 
Nobody in this country has ever served jail time for violating the ADA, so 
why should blind consumers expect electronic products to become more 
accessible just because some weak legislation mandates it?  The blindness 
advocacy organizations love to pat themselves on the back for getting such 
legislation passed, but when it comes to enforcing it, they have been 
largely ineffective.

Gerald

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Christopher Chaltain" <chaltain at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances" 
<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's

> My understanding of this thread is that you're screwed if you're a blind
> TV watcher in the US because:
> * Americans aren't as creative as they used to be.
> * American corporations put profit ahead of solving public problems,
> unlike corporations elsewhere in the world.
> * More and more TV's are coming from Chinese companies now, who don't
> care about American consumers and who don't care about making accessible
> products.
>
> Note that I don't agree with any of the above, and I'd rather not see
> such political and unfounded statements made on a list intended to talk
> about the accessibility of consumer electronics, although I understand
> everyone has an opinion and the right to voice it. I also don't agree
> with the implication that we're living in a time that's so bleak or
> hopeless for the blind TV watcher. Technology and legislation is in
> place now where we could see a dramatic increase in the accessibility of
> smart TV's and advanced set top boxes. Of course, we won't see these
> improvements if we just assume that it's hopeless and don't even try.
>
> On 15/04/12 12:46, Jim Barbour wrote:
>> I just started reading this thread. What does this message have to do 
>> with tvs or electronics?
>> Jim
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Apr 15, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone
>>> of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only
>>> reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal
>>> investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are
>>> actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being
>>> zero.
>>>
>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>>>
>>>> In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could say 
>>>> the
>>>> US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because 
>>>> with
>>>> businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to tell 
>>>> and
>>>> less important to determine where creativity comes from geographically.
>>>> With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
>>>> UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come 
>>>> from
>>>> somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
>>>>
>>>> My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
>>>> don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for corporations 
>>>> was
>>>> solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
>>>> revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
>>>> corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to their
>>>> close links with the English government. That's why the original US
>>>> corporations were so business focused, and their links to the 
>>>> government
>>>> were kept tenuous.
>>>>
>>>> I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I 
>>>> suspect
>>>> that most corporations and especially international or transnational
>>>> corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a 
>>>> monopoly
>>>> on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
>>>> economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
>>>> engaged in philanthropic missions.
>>>>
>>>> On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>>>> Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this 
>>>>> planet.
>>>>> In some countries a little of the original purpose for corporations is
>>>>> chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third
>>>>> priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The 
>>>>> first
>>>>> thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about
>>>>> corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go
>>>>> figure.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER DEVICES 
>>>>>> AS IT IS
>>>>>> SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U S 
>>>>>> HAS LOST
>>>>>> ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
>>>>>> THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
>>>>>> <deniserob at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>>>>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
>>>>>>>
http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews/Pages
/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
>>>>>>> <timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater 
>>>>>>>> systems
>>>>>>>> with them?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
>>> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> Electronics-talk:
>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore
.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Electronics-talk:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gma
il.com
>
>
> -- 
> Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-talk mailing list
> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Electronics-talk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/bwaylimited%40
verizon.net 

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:05:03 -0400
From: tina birenbaum <tinabir at samobile.net>
To: electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Electronics-talk] my experiences with android
Message-ID: d88bf9eb-3b9e-47c4-a8cc-2389ebba6a87 at samobile.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"

 There was a message asking about android here earlier. I'm not sure it 
was directed to me, but I wrote back anyway, meant it to get to the 
list and it didn't so am trying again. Feel free to e-mail me off list 
or we can talk on skype or zello if anyone wants more info about how i 
use my phone.  I have the samsung transform ultra from sprint. I've 
used android for probably a year and a half or so now and am very happy 
with. it. i webr from using a braille note all the time and for 
everything, to pretty much never using the Braille note. my droid goes 
everywhere with me. i was playing navigator on the Way to the third day 
concert friday night and helped my friend find the dennys afterward and 
played some third day music she hadn't heard all on my android and. i 
came home and couldn't sleep so bought Even more of their music on the 
phone . right from the google play store on the phone. It's not for 
everyone, if you are techy, like to customize your phone, want a memory 
card of up to 32 gb and want to just have your computer See your phone 
as a drive, it might work for you. But yes, i really like mine.
Original message:

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:15:50 -0400
From: "JULIE PHILLIPSON" <jbrew48 at verizon.net>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID: <19A6E105882D4EE991F5261BC9C8A243 at JulieHP>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	reply-type=response

it depends if they want our money or not.  My money is as good as anyone 
else's.  Every sale makes a difference to them.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited at verizon.net>
        To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances" 
<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's

>
> The problem with these accessibility initiatives is that they lack real 
> substance.  What if a manufacture refuses to abide by the law and make 
> their electronic products blind accessible?  Are their executives going to

> be aggressivley prosecuted and thrown in jail?  Of course not.  Their 
> companies will merely be forced to pay nominal fines and go about their 
> business. Nobody in this country has ever served jail time for violating 
> the ADA, so why should blind consumers expect electronic products to 
> become more accessible just because some weak legislation mandates it? 
> The blindness advocacy organizations love to pat themselves on the back 
> for getting such legislation passed, but when it comes to enforcing it, 
> they have been largely ineffective.
>
> Gerald
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Christopher Chaltain" <chaltain at gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances" 
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>
>
>> My understanding of this thread is that you're screwed if you're a blind
>> TV watcher in the US because:
>> * Americans aren't as creative as they used to be.
>> * American corporations put profit ahead of solving public problems,
>> unlike corporations elsewhere in the world.
>> * More and more TV's are coming from Chinese companies now, who don't
>> care about American consumers and who don't care about making accessible
>> products.
>>
>> Note that I don't agree with any of the above, and I'd rather not see
>> such political and unfounded statements made on a list intended to talk
>> about the accessibility of consumer electronics, although I understand
>> everyone has an opinion and the right to voice it. I also don't agree
>> with the implication that we're living in a time that's so bleak or
>> hopeless for the blind TV watcher. Technology and legislation is in
>> place now where we could see a dramatic increase in the accessibility of
>> smart TV's and advanced set top boxes. Of course, we won't see these
>> improvements if we just assume that it's hopeless and don't even try.
>>
>> On 15/04/12 12:46, Jim Barbour wrote:
>>> I just started reading this thread. What does this message have to do 
>>> with tvs or electronics?
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Apr 15, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone
>>>> of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only
>>>> reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal
>>>> investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are
>>>> actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being
>>>> zero.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could say 
>>>>> the
>>>>> US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because 
>>>>> with
>>>>> businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to tell 
>>>>> and
>>>>> less important to determine where creativity comes from 
>>>>> geographically.
>>>>> With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
>>>>> UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come 
>>>>> from
>>>>> somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
>>>>> don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for corporations 
>>>>> was
>>>>> solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
>>>>> revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
>>>>> corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to 
>>>>> their
>>>>> close links with the English government. That's why the original US
>>>>> corporations were so business focused, and their links to the 
>>>>> government
>>>>> were kept tenuous.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I 
>>>>> suspect
>>>>> that most corporations and especially international or transnational
>>>>> corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a 
>>>>> monopoly
>>>>> on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
>>>>> economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
>>>>> engaged in philanthropic missions.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>>>>> Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this 
>>>>>> planet.
>>>>>> In some countries a little of the original purpose for corporations 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third
>>>>>> priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The 
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about
>>>>>> corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go
>>>>>> figure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER DEVICES 
>>>>>>> AS IT IS
>>>>>>> SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U S 
>>>>>>> HAS LOST
>>>>>>> ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
>>>>>>> THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
>>>>>>> <deniserob at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>>>>>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
>>>>>>>>
http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews/Pages
/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
>>>>>>>> <timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater 
>>>>>>>>> systems
>>>>>>>>> with them?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
>>>> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>>>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> Electronics-talk:
>>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore
.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> Electronics-talk:
>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gma
il.com
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Christopher (CJ)
>> chaltain at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Electronics-talk:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/bwaylimited%40
verizon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-talk mailing list
> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Electronics-talk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbrew48%40veri
zon.net 

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 15:26:34 -0700
From: Tony Sohl <tonysohl at cox.net>
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and
	appliances<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID:

<20120415222712.SFUM7477.fed1rmfepo202.cox.net at fed1rmimpo305.cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed

Hi I have a toshiba TV and it's very accessible, and it's an 
older model not the flat screen TV.

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 17:55:37 -0500
From: "Gene Coulter" <escoulter at centurytel.net>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID: <788BA1F5A3D94775993FC7560EA3B91E at GenePC>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"

It is my understanding that the technology to make TV?s and other devices is

reality inexpensive probably less than those nominal fines spoken of.
And, we don?t have anything to complain about if we do not advocate for 
ourselves whether or not it does any good or not. The point of ADA has never

been to put people in jail but to get compliance. If not for consumer groups

hundreds of web sites such as Target, Major League Baseball and AOL would 
not be accesible. The NFB doesn?t pat it self on the pat for what needs to 
be done but instead trys to get it done.

From: JULIE PHILLIPSON
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:15 PM
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's

it depends if they want our money or not.  My money is as good as anyone
else's.  Every sale makes a difference to them.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited at verizon.net>
        To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's

>
> The problem with these accessibility initiatives is that they lack real
> substance.  What if a manufacture refuses to abide by the law and make
> their electronic products blind accessible?  Are their executives going to
> be aggressivley prosecuted and thrown in jail?  Of course not.  Their
> companies will merely be forced to pay nominal fines and go about their
> business. Nobody in this country has ever served jail time for violating
> the ADA, so why should blind consumers expect electronic products to
> become more accessible just because some weak legislation mandates it?
> The blindness advocacy organizations love to pat themselves on the back
> for getting such legislation passed, but when it comes to enforcing it,
> they have been largely ineffective.
>
> Gerald
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Christopher Chaltain" <chaltain at gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>
>
>> My understanding of this thread is that you're screwed if you're a blind
>> TV watcher in the US because:
>> * Americans aren't as creative as they used to be.
>> * American corporations put profit ahead of solving public problems,
>> unlike corporations elsewhere in the world.
>> * More and more TV's are coming from Chinese companies now, who don't
>> care about American consumers and who don't care about making accessible
>> products.
>>
>> Note that I don't agree with any of the above, and I'd rather not see
>> such political and unfounded statements made on a list intended to talk
>> about the accessibility of consumer electronics, although I understand
>> everyone has an opinion and the right to voice it. I also don't agree
>> with the implication that we're living in a time that's so bleak or
>> hopeless for the blind TV watcher. Technology and legislation is in
>> place now where we could see a dramatic increase in the accessibility of
>> smart TV's and advanced set top boxes. Of course, we won't see these
>> improvements if we just assume that it's hopeless and don't even try.
>>
>> On 15/04/12 12:46, Jim Barbour wrote:
>>> I just started reading this thread. What does this message have to do
>>> with tvs or electronics?
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Apr 15, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone
>>>> of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only
>>>> reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal
>>>> investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are
>>>> actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being
>>>> zero.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could say
>>>>> the
>>>>> US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because
>>>>> with
>>>>> businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to tell
>>>>> and
>>>>> less important to determine where creativity comes from
>>>>> geographically.
>>>>> With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
>>>>> UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come
>>>>> from
>>>>> somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
>>>>> don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for corporations
>>>>> was
>>>>> solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
>>>>> revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
>>>>> corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to
>>>>> their
>>>>> close links with the English government. That's why the original US
>>>>> corporations were so business focused, and their links to the
>>>>> government
>>>>> were kept tenuous.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I
>>>>> suspect
>>>>> that most corporations and especially international or transnational
>>>>> corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a
>>>>> monopoly
>>>>> on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
>>>>> economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
>>>>> engaged in philanthropic missions.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>>>>> Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this
>>>>>> planet.
>>>>>> In some countries a little of the original purpose for corporations
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third
>>>>>> priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about
>>>>>> corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go
>>>>>> figure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER DEVICES
>>>>>>> AS IT IS
>>>>>>> SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U S
>>>>>>> HAS LOST
>>>>>>> ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
>>>>>>> THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
>>>>>>> <deniserob at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>>>>>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
>>>>>>>>
http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews/Pages
/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
>>>>>>>> <timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater
>>>>>>>>> systems
>>>>>>>>> with them?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
>>>> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>>>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Electronics-talk:
>>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore
.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Electronics-talk:
>>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gma
il.com
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Christopher (CJ)
>> chaltain at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Electronics-talk:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/bwaylimited%40
verizon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-talk mailing list
> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Electronics-talk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbrew48%40veri
zon.net

_______________________________________________
Electronics-talk mailing list
Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Electronics-talk:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/escoulter%40ce
nturytel.net

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 15:59:38 -0700
From: Tony Sohl <tonysohl at cox.net>
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and
	appliances<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID:

<20120415230015.MAPS29577.fed1rmfepo201.cox.net at fed1rmimpo305.cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed

Hi I agree with you, and that's the problem with devices for the 
blind, because they are so expensive.

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 20:30:14 -0700
From: "cheez" <cheez at cox.net>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID: <B846BD3902624387B9709D27505ECD09 at odyssey>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=response

If the Government isn't complying to the accessibility laws, what makes you 
think manufacturers are going to?
Just keep in mind.  The TV's are novelties and won't last long in 
production.  So it's almost as if one has to purchased more than one for a 
backup.
Vince

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Vandervest" <timelord09 at att.net>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances" 
<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's

>i thought the president signed something in 2010 saying that all set top 
>boxes and several other things had to be made accessible by the 2012-2013 
>model year
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-talk mailing list
> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Electronics-talk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/cheez%40cox.ne
t 

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 20:32:04 -0700
From: "cheez" <cheez at cox.net>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID: <52CA5BEBE0C04F6AAAE8D166CE2E9CEB at odyssey>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

Just venting frustrations, Jimmy.  It'll cease soon.
Vince

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Barbour" <jbar at barcore.com>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances" 
<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances" 
<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's

>I just started reading this thread. What does this message have to do with 
>tvs or electronics?
> Jim
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 15, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net> 
> wrote:
>
>> So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone
>> of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only
>> reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal
>> investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are
>> actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being
>> zero.
>>
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>>
>>> In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could say the
>>> US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because with
>>> businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to tell and
>>> less important to determine where creativity comes from geographically.
>>> With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
>>> UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come from
>>> somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
>>>
>>> My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
>>> don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for corporations was
>>> solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
>>> revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
>>> corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to their
>>> close links with the English government. That's why the original US
>>> corporations were so business focused, and their links to the government
>>> were kept tenuous.
>>>
>>> I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I suspect
>>> that most corporations and especially international or transnational
>>> corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a monopoly
>>> on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
>>> economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
>>> engaged in philanthropic missions.
>>>
>>> On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>>> Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this planet.
>>>> In some countries a little of the original purpose for corporations is
>>>> chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third
>>>> priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The first
>>>> thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about
>>>> corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go
>>>> figure.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER DEVICES AS

>>>>> IT IS
>>>>> SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U S 
>>>>> HAS LOST
>>>>> ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
>>>>> THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
>>>>> <deniserob at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>>>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
>>>>>>
http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews/Pages
/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
>>>>>> <timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater 
>>>>>>> systems
>>>>>>> with them?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
>> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Electronics-talk:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore
.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-talk mailing list
> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Electronics-talk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/cheez%40cox.ne
t 

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 23:58:14 -0400
From: "Kaye" <kayezimpher at comcast.net>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] for kay, who just got zello
Message-ID: <ED5FCAEE3263489AA628EBBF87D38524 at kayezimpherPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=response

I still can't figure it out. I have been told that a couple of people added 
me, but I can't see their pending request. I have even heard the churping 
sound like someone is trying to communicate, but can't find the place to see

what they said. I am truly at a loss. I'm usually not this slow? lol

Kaye Zimpher
Check out my facebook at www.facebook.com/thekeeperoftime
I will show you the first time, and help you if you mess up the second time.

But the third time you are on your own, because that is the way the world 
is.
-----Original Message----- 
From: tina birenbaum
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:05 AM
To: electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] for kay, who just got zello

I can't get your private e-mail so will just e-mail you here. After i
sign in to zello , i set mine to sign in automatically, it shows me a
list of my channels and contacts if i click on someone then it shows
their username and if i arrow down below that is a button that says
hold to talk . you had asked about the menu, for me, under the menu are
options, more,  add contacts and channels and a couple other things
can;t remember what. Does this help? i can try and help you more if you
want. let me know. I'm having a lot of fun playing with it.

_______________________________________________
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Electronics-talk:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/kayezimpher%40
comcast.net 

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 21:00:34 -0700
From: Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com>
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID: <20120416040033.GJ7558 at barcore.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Jimmy Eh?

The frustration doesn't seem to be passing.  it is now, however, being
accopanied by a strong dose of misinformation about "disability laws"
though.

No matter, I can easily mute the thread.  Just responding to the
"jimmy" barb you through out.

Jim

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 08:32:04PM -0700, cheez wrote:
> Just venting frustrations, Jimmy.  It'll cease soon.
> Vince
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Barbour" <jbar at barcore.com>
> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
> 
> 
> >I just started reading this thread. What does this message have to do
with
> >tvs or electronics?
> >Jim
> >
> >Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >On Apr 15, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone
> >>of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only
> >>reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal
> >>investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are
> >>actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being
> >>zero.
> >>
> >>On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> >>
> >>>In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could say
the
> >>>US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because
with
> >>>businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to tell
and
> >>>less important to determine where creativity comes from geographically.
> >>>With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
> >>>UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come
from
> >>>somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
> >>>
> >>>My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
> >>>don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for corporations
was
> >>>solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
> >>>revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
> >>>corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to their
> >>>close links with the English government. That's why the original US
> >>>corporations were so business focused, and their links to the
government
> >>>were kept tenuous.
> >>>
> >>>I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I
suspect
> >>>that most corporations and especially international or transnational
> >>>corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a
monopoly
> >>>on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
> >>>economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
> >>>engaged in philanthropic missions.
> >>>
> >>>On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> >>>>Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this
planet.
> >>>>In some countries a little of the original purpose for corporations is
> >>>>chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third
> >>>>priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The
first
> >>>>thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about
> >>>>corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go
> >>>>figure.
> >>>>
> >>>>On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER
> >>>>>DEVICES AS IT IS
> >>>>>SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U
> >>>>>S HAS LOST
> >>>>>ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
> >>>>>THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
> >>>>><deniserob at gmail.com>
> >>>>>To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
> >>>>><electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
> >>>>>Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
>
>>>>>>http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews
/Pages/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
> >>>>>><timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater
> >>>>>>>systems
> >>>>>>>with them?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
> >><http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Electronics-talk mailing list
> >>Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>Electronics-talk:
>
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barco
re.com
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Electronics-talk mailing list
> >Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >Electronics-talk:
>
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/cheez%40cox.n
et
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-talk mailing list
> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Electronics-talk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore
.com
> 

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 00:00:52 -0400
From: "Kaye" <kayezimpher at comcast.net>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] Getting Email Addresses was Re:  for
	kay,	who just got zello
Message-ID: <A443D6695FE5465B8B0B759E95B74452 at kayezimpherPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

Tina, my emaill address is
kayezimpher at comcast.net
Hope this helps.

Kaye Zimpher
Check out my facebook at www.facebook.com/thekeeperoftime
I will show you the first time, and help you if you mess up the second time.

But the third time you are on your own, because that is the way the world 
is.
-----Original Message----- 
From: Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 1:29 PM
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] Getting Email Addresses was Re: for kay, who

just got zello

I've never quite understood this myself, but I guess some screen reader
/ email client combinations might make this information harder to get to
than others. I've usually found that a reply to all usually grabs the
originator's email address. I've also started including my own email
address in my signature just because of this issue.

On 13/04/12 11:47, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote:
> This seems to be a recurring problem, people not being able to get
> individual email addresses off of emails from the list. For the people
> who seem to be having trouble with this, what email clients or online
> emails are you using?
>
> Nicole
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "tina birenbaum" <tinabir at samobile.net>
> To: <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 9:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] for kay, who just got zello
>
>
>> I can't get your private e-mail so will just e-mail you here. After i
>> sign in to zello , i set mine to sign in automatically, it shows me a
>> list of my channels and contacts if i click on someone then it shows
>> their username and if i arrow down below that is a button that says
>> hold to talk . you had asked about the menu, for me, under the menu
>> are options, more,  add contacts and channels and a couple other
>> things can;t remember what. Does this help? i can try and help you
>> more if you want. let me know. I'm having a lot of fun playing with it.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Electronics-talk:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40w
avecable.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-talk mailing list
> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Electronics-talk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gma
il.com
>

-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at gmail.com

_______________________________________________
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
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comcast.net 

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 00:10:12 -0400
From: "Kaye" <kayezimpher at comcast.net>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID: <445ABEC691E34DD78873E2DDEFA29914 at kayezimpherPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

That is a good summary of the thread, but could we please change our subject

lines when the conversation changes?
Thanks a bunch!

Kaye Zimpher
Check out my facebook at www.facebook.com/thekeeperoftime
I will show you the first time, and help you if you mess up the second time.

But the third time you are on your own, because that is the way the world 
is.
-----Original Message----- 
From: Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:35 PM
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's

My understanding of this thread is that you're screwed if you're a blind
TV watcher in the US because:
* Americans aren't as creative as they used to be.
* American corporations put profit ahead of solving public problems,
unlike corporations elsewhere in the world.
* More and more TV's are coming from Chinese companies now, who don't
care about American consumers and who don't care about making accessible
products.

Note that I don't agree with any of the above, and I'd rather not see
such political and unfounded statements made on a list intended to talk
about the accessibility of consumer electronics, although I understand
everyone has an opinion and the right to voice it. I also don't agree
with the implication that we're living in a time that's so bleak or
hopeless for the blind TV watcher. Technology and legislation is in
place now where we could see a dramatic increase in the accessibility of
smart TV's and advanced set top boxes. Of course, we won't see these
improvements if we just assume that it's hopeless and don't even try.

On 15/04/12 12:46, Jim Barbour wrote:
> I just started reading this thread. What does this message have to do with

> tvs or electronics?
> Jim
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 15, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net> 
> wrote:
>
>> So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone
>> of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only
>> reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal
>> investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are
>> actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being
>> zero.
>>
>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>>
>>> In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could say the
>>> US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because with
>>> businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to tell and
>>> less important to determine where creativity comes from geographically.
>>> With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
>>> UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come from
>>> somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
>>>
>>> My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
>>> don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for corporations was
>>> solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
>>> revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
>>> corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to their
>>> close links with the English government. That's why the original US
>>> corporations were so business focused, and their links to the government
>>> were kept tenuous.
>>>
>>> I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I suspect
>>> that most corporations and especially international or transnational
>>> corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a monopoly
>>> on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
>>> economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
>>> engaged in philanthropic missions.
>>>
>>> On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>>> Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this planet.
>>>> In some countries a little of the original purpose for corporations is
>>>> chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third
>>>> priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The first
>>>> thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about
>>>> corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go
>>>> figure.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER DEVICES AS

>>>>> IT IS
>>>>> SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U S 
>>>>> HAS LOST
>>>>> ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
>>>>> THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
>>>>> <deniserob at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>>>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
>>>>>>
http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews/Pages
/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
>>>>>> <timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater 
>>>>>>> systems
>>>>>>> with them?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
>> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-talk mailing list
>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Electronics-talk:
>>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore
.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-talk mailing list
> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Electronics-talk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40gma
il.com

-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at gmail.com

_______________________________________________
Electronics-talk mailing list
Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
Electronics-talk:
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comcast.net 

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 00:13:45 -0400
From: "Kaye" <kayezimpher at comcast.net>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID: <1B5524FA91424E2D9CF439221294E12D at kayezimpherPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

It seems like I have seen a commercial on tv about a new line of smart tv's 
and the person in the commercial is speaking the menu item he wants. I can't

remember the brand, possibly sanyo? But I wondered if the tv talked back or 
if he just spoke the items such as sports etc.

Kaye Zimpher
Check out my facebook at www.facebook.com/thekeeperoftime
I will show you the first time, and help you if you mess up the second time.

But the third time you are on your own, because that is the way the world 
is.
-----Original Message----- 
From: Jim Barbour
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 12:00 AM
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's

Jimmy Eh?

The frustration doesn't seem to be passing.  it is now, however, being
accopanied by a strong dose of misinformation about "disability laws" 
though.

No matter, I can easily mute the thread.  Just responding to the
"jimmy" barb you through out.

Jim

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 08:32:04PM -0700, cheez wrote:
> Just venting frustrations, Jimmy.  It'll cease soon.
> Vince
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Barbour" <jbar at barcore.com>
> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>
>
> >I just started reading this thread. What does this message have to do 
> >with
> >tvs or electronics?
> >Jim
> >
> >Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >On Apr 15, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone
> >>of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only
> >>reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal
> >>investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are
> >>actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being
> >>zero.
> >>
> >>On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> >>
> >>>In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could say 
> >>>the
> >>>US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because 
> >>>with
> >>>businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to tell 
> >>>and
> >>>less important to determine where creativity comes from geographically.
> >>>With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
> >>>UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come 
> >>>from
> >>>somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
> >>>
> >>>My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
> >>>don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for corporations 
> >>>was
> >>>solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
> >>>revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
> >>>corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to their
> >>>close links with the English government. That's why the original US
> >>>corporations were so business focused, and their links to the 
> >>>government
> >>>were kept tenuous.
> >>>
> >>>I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I 
> >>>suspect
> >>>that most corporations and especially international or transnational
> >>>corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a 
> >>>monopoly
> >>>on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
> >>>economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
> >>>engaged in philanthropic missions.
> >>>
> >>>On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> >>>>Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this 
> >>>>planet.
> >>>>In some countries a little of the original purpose for corporations is
> >>>>chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third
> >>>>priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The 
> >>>>first
> >>>>thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about
> >>>>corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go
> >>>>figure.
> >>>>
> >>>>On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER
> >>>>>DEVICES AS IT IS
> >>>>>SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U
> >>>>>S HAS LOST
> >>>>>ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
> >>>>>THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
> >>>>><deniserob at gmail.com>
> >>>>>To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
> >>>>><electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
> >>>>>Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
>
>>>>>>http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews
/Pages/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
> >>>>>><timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater
> >>>>>>>systems
> >>>>>>>with them?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
> >><http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Electronics-talk mailing list
> >>Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>Electronics-talk:
>
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barco
re.com
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Electronics-talk mailing list
> >Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >Electronics-talk:
>
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/cheez%40cox.n
et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-talk mailing list
> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Electronics-talk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore
.com
>

_______________________________________________
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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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comcast.net 

------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2012 21:23:43 -0700
From: "cheez" <cheez at cox.net>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
Message-ID: <4A7801CBFA0144ED8A846196831878E6 at odyssey>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

No offense intended.
Vince

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Barbour" <jbar at barcore.com>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances" 
<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's

> Jimmy Eh?
>
> The frustration doesn't seem to be passing.  it is now, however, being
> accopanied by a strong dose of misinformation about "disability laws" 
> though.
>
> No matter, I can easily mute the thread.  Just responding to the
> "jimmy" barb you through out.
>
> Jim
>
> On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 08:32:04PM -0700, cheez wrote:
>> Just venting frustrations, Jimmy.  It'll cease soon.
>> Vince
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Barbour" <jbar at barcore.com>
>> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 10:46 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>>
>>
>> >I just started reading this thread. What does this message have to do 
>> >with
>> >tvs or electronics?
>> >Jim
>> >
>> >Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >On Apr 15, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone
>> >>of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only
>> >>reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal
>> >>investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are
>> >>actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being
>> >>zero.
>> >>
>> >>On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could say 
>> >>>the
>> >>>US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because 
>> >>>with
>> >>>businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to tell 
>> >>>and
>> >>>less important to determine where creativity comes from 
>> >>>geographically.
>> >>>With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
>> >>>UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come 
>> >>>from
>> >>>somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
>> >>>
>> >>>My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
>> >>>don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for corporations 
>> >>>was
>> >>>solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
>> >>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
>> >>>revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
>> >>>corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to 
>> >>>their
>> >>>close links with the English government. That's why the original US
>> >>>corporations were so business focused, and their links to the 
>> >>>government
>> >>>were kept tenuous.
>> >>>
>> >>>I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I 
>> >>>suspect
>> >>>that most corporations and especially international or transnational
>> >>>corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a 
>> >>>monopoly
>> >>>on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
>> >>>economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
>> >>>engaged in philanthropic missions.
>> >>>
>> >>>On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>> >>>>Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this 
>> >>>>planet.
>> >>>>In some countries a little of the original purpose for corporations 
>> >>>>is
>> >>>>chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third
>> >>>>priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The 
>> >>>>first
>> >>>>thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about
>> >>>>corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go
>> >>>>figure.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER
>> >>>>>DEVICES AS IT IS
>> >>>>>SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U
>> >>>>>S HAS LOST
>> >>>>>ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
>> >>>>>THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
>> >>>>><deniserob at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>> >>>>><electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> >>>>>Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
>> >>>>>Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
>>
>>>>>>http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews
/Pages/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
>> >>>>>><timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater
>> >>>>>>>systems
>> >>>>>>>with them?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
>> >><http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 05:30:09 -0500
From: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
	<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [Electronics-talk] Effective accessibility advocacy [was "Re:
	tv's"]
Message-ID: <4F8BF4B1.2070002 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

And what do you propose as an alternative? I claim working with
companies, passing legislation, filing complaints under the ADA and
other statutes, signing petitions, pursuing law suits and so on will
have much more effect on increasing the accessibility of TV's and other
products than doing nothing other than complaining how hopeless it all is.

No executives are going to be personally prosecuted for violating the
ADA or other accessibility laws. This has more to do with corporate
legislation than a perceived indifference towards accessibility
legislation. There are very few laws where an executive of a corporation
can be prosecuted personally.

As I said above, a lot can be done to make electronics more accessible
without sending executives to jail. Whether you want to admit it or not,
or do the research yourself, the blindness advocacy organizations have
done a lot to enforce the ADA and other statues. using Google it isn't
hard to come up with how many complaints have been filed under the ADA
and how many of them have been successful. Furthermore, web sites and
applications like AOL, Google and so on are all now more accessible than
they would be without the blindness advocacy groups and the legislation
they've passed. Ditto for book readers, cell phones and so on.

Of course, no matter how strong the legislation is, nothing will come
from it if people just sit on their hands and complain about how
hopeless it is. For any legislation to be successful, people will need
to report violations and participate in the process.

On 15/04/12 15:31, Gerald Levy wrote:
> 
> The problem with these accessibility initiatives is that they lack real
> substance.  What if a manufacture refuses to abide by the law and make
> their electronic products blind accessible?  Are their executives going
> to be aggressivley prosecuted and thrown in jail?  Of course not.  Their
> companies will merely be forced to pay nominal fines and go about their
> business. Nobody in this country has ever served jail time for violating
> the ADA, so why should blind consumers expect electronic products to
> become more accessible just because some weak legislation mandates it? 
> The blindness advocacy organizations love to pat themselves on the back
> for getting such legislation passed, but when it comes to enforcing it,
> they have been largely ineffective.
> 
> Gerald
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Chaltain"
> <chaltain at gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
> 
> 
>> My understanding of this thread is that you're screwed if you're a blind
>> TV watcher in the US because:
>> * Americans aren't as creative as they used to be.
>> * American corporations put profit ahead of solving public problems,
>> unlike corporations elsewhere in the world.
>> * More and more TV's are coming from Chinese companies now, who don't
>> care about American consumers and who don't care about making accessible
>> products.
>>
>> Note that I don't agree with any of the above, and I'd rather not see
>> such political and unfounded statements made on a list intended to talk
>> about the accessibility of consumer electronics, although I understand
>> everyone has an opinion and the right to voice it. I also don't agree
>> with the implication that we're living in a time that's so bleak or
>> hopeless for the blind TV watcher. Technology and legislation is in
>> place now where we could see a dramatic increase in the accessibility of
>> smart TV's and advanced set top boxes. Of course, we won't see these
>> improvements if we just assume that it's hopeless and don't even try.
>>
>> On 15/04/12 12:46, Jim Barbour wrote:
>>> I just started reading this thread. What does this message have to do
>>> with tvs or electronics?
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Apr 15, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at shellworld.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So many examples in fact that there isn't a single major bank everyone
>>>> of the State's attorney's general doesn't want to prosecute.  The only
>>>> reason that hasn't happened is because of ongoing Federal
>>>> investigations.  Guess how many of those major national banks are
>>>> actually going to get prosecuted.  I'm pretty sure it will end up being
>>>> zero.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In a world that's getting flatter and flatter, I guess you could
>>>>> say the
>>>>> US is losing it's edge in creativity, but IMHO, that's more because
>>>>> with
>>>>> businesses becoming more and more international, it's harder to
>>>>> tell and
>>>>> less important to determine where creativity comes from
>>>>> geographically.
>>>>> With respect to these TV's, it's true they're being distributed in the
>>>>> UK and Ireland first, but how do we know the technology didn't come
>>>>> from
>>>>> somewhere else, and this was nothing but a marketing decision?
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding of the history of corporations is a bit different. I
>>>>> don't recall ever hearing that the original charter for
>>>>> corporations was
>>>>> solving public problems, and I don't see that discuss at
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_companies. In fact, the US
>>>>> revolution was due in some part to the tight link between English
>>>>> corporations and the abuses they were allowed to undertake due to
>>>>> their
>>>>> close links with the English government. That's why the original US
>>>>> corporations were so business focused, and their links to the
>>>>> government
>>>>> were kept tenuous.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never been to business school in the US or elsewhere, but I
>>>>> suspect
>>>>> that most corporations and especially international or transnational
>>>>> corporations work towards the same goals. The US doesn't have a
>>>>> monopoly
>>>>> on greed, corruption or the desire to make money in a capitalist
>>>>> economy. Furthermore, there are plenty of examples of US corporations
>>>>> engaged in philanthropic missions.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 14/04/12 18:14, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>>>>>> Corporate morays differ in America from other locations on this
>>>>>> planet.
>>>>>> In some countries a little of the original purpose for
>>>>>> corporations is
>>>>>> chartered to solve public problems.  Enriching investors was a third
>>>>>> priority behind perpetuation of the corporations themselves.  The
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> thing anyone going to Business School here in America hears about
>>>>>> corporations is that their purpose is to enrich their investors.  Go
>>>>>> figure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2012, JULIE PHILLIPSON wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AT LEAST A START.  I HOPE IT CONTINUES AND EXPANDS TO OTHER
>>>>>>> DEVICES AS IT IS
>>>>>>> SUPPOSE TO.ITS INTERESTING THEY STARTED IN THE UK, BUT THEN THE U
>>>>>>> S HAS LOST
>>>>>>> ITS EDGE IN CREATIVITY.
>>>>>>> THIS IS G----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Denise M Robinson"
>>>>>>> <deniserob at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>>>>>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 6:08 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] tv's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is the site for talking TVs--just open this link
>>>>>>>>
http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/tvradiofilm/tvradiofilmnews/Pages
/talking_television_panasonic.aspx
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, William Vandervest
>>>>>>>> <timelord09 at att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> are there any tv's thet have accessible menues or home theater
>>>>>>>>> systems
>>>>>>>>> with them?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
>>>> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>

-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at gmail.com

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