[Electronics-talk] Microsoft Surface

Sun Apr 7 16:00:15 UTC 2013

Hey Tracy and Everyone,

It is true that windows phones don't yet have a screen reader.  .
However, the surface pro is a full windows tablet and does have
narrator on it.

To be clear, I'm not at all sure this is a good option though.  It's
expensive, the accessibility is new, and it's narrator.

Hope this clarifies,

Jim

On Sun, Apr 07, 2013 at 09:13:30AM -0400, Tracy Carcione wrote:
> It seems, from a recent post on the NFBCS list, that there is no
> accessibility built into Windows phones yet.
> Tracy
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Barbour" <jbar at barcore.com>
> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 1:56 PM
> Subject: [Electronics-talk] Chrome os (was Re: Good article on androidversus
> iOS accessibility.)
> 
> 
> >Chrome is supposed to have its own screen reader built-in. However, I
> >don't know anything about how good it is, nor  how good the chrome OS is.
> >
> >Another option for you might be look at the Microsoft surface Pro. It to
> >is expensive, but is a lot more like windows.
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >On Apr 6, 2013, at 10:14 AM, "Julie Phillipson" <jbrew48 at verizon.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Ok thanks.  I want to use it mostly for GPS but there are a whole lot of
> >>other aps that I like on both that I would like.  I'm sure I would use
> >>it for all sorts of other things to.  I originally started looking to
> >>replace my netbook but well they seem to be disappearing.  As far as I
> >>know chrome seems to be the thing with smaller computers that are mobile
> >>but has chrome gotten accessible?  The last I knew it was not compatible
> >>with Jaws or any other screen reader.  Is that still the case?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Electronics-talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>Behalf Of Jim Barbour
> >>Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 11:26 AM
> >>To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
> >>Cc: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
> >>Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] Good article on android versus iOS
> >>accessibility.
> >>
> >>I don't think Marco is saying that android is not usable by a blind
> >>person, I think he is saying that iOS  is more usable by a blind person.
> >>I would agree with this.
> >>
> >>I have used an iPad, and a Nexus seven, And I believe the accessibility
> >>outcomes would be about the same as a comparison he did between iPhone
> >>and Nexis for. However, the hardware does not compare equally.
> >>
> >>Bottom line, if you bought a Nexus seven, You would be able to use it.
> >>If you spend extra money for an iPad, you would notice the improvement
> >>for sure.
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>
> >>Jim
> >>
> >>Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>On Apr 6, 2013, at 7:02 AM, "Julie Phillipson" <jbrew48 at verizon.net>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>I've been investigating both an I pad mini and a nexus 7 does this
> >>>article speak the same to nexus 4 as to nexus 7?  I listened to a pod
> >>>cast on That Android show on the Nexus 7 and it sounded much more
> >>>accessible.  It also sounds like many of the things he talks about in
> >>>this article could be done with an external keyboard or on a full
> >>>computer more easily.  The price difference between the two is
> >>>significant too Nexus 7 $249.99 I pad $450 for a 32 gb tablet, but if
> >>>its not very usable to a blind user then what good is it?  So how
> >>>inaccessible is it really?  I want to get one or the other and I'm
> >>>only going to buy it once and not both, like a lot of you tech guys
> >>>do!  I'm pretty good with figuring things out on the computer but I
> >>>don't want to be frustrated to the point of giving up on it either.
> >>>Just a lot of conflicting information out there.  I also wonder if he
> >>>was taking advantage of all the aps available for blind android users?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Electronics-talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain
> >>>Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 2:51 AM
> >>>To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
> >>>Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] Good article on android versus iOS
> >>>accessibility.
> >>>
> >>>Looks like a good summary of some points where Android's accessibility
> >>>isn't up to par with Apple's. He's going beyond just some
> >>>accessibility issues though, and some of the issues he brings up won't
> >>>be important to every smart phone user.
> >>>
> >>>He seems pretty happy with his iPhone, so I wonder why he's even
> >>>looking at Android. The historical points he brings up about Android's
> >>>lack of accessibility reads like there might be a bias here against
> >>>Android, although I suspect his evaluation was pretty fair. If your
> >>>only criteria in comparing the two platforms is going to be
> >>>accessibility then I think it's pretty well understood that Apple has
> >>>the lead here, and there's no reason to switch. I think it would be
> >>>more interesting to hear from someone who has a compelling reason to
> >>>use Android and how accessible they find the platform.
> >>>
> >>>I also note that he didn't point out a single short coming of the
> >>>iPhone and it's accessibility. I'd be curious to know how Android
> >>>handles some of the situations where I find the iPhone lacking.
> >>>
> >>>On 04/05/2013 10:05 PM, Jim Barbour wrote:
> >>>>This article tracked pretty well with my results on android. I'd be
> >>>>curious how others felt.
> >>>>
> >>>>Jim
> >>>>
> >>>>Switching to Android full-time – an experiment | Marco’s
> >>>>accessibility blog
> >>>>http://www.marcozehe.de/2013/04/05/switching-to-android-full-time-an-
> >>>>e
> >>>>xperiment/
> >>>>
> >>>>A few weeks ago, I decided to conduct an experiment. I wanted to
> >>>>determine if Android 4.2.2 “Jelly Bean” was finally ready for me to
> >>>>switch to full-time, away from an iPhone.
> >>>>
> >>>>Background
> >>>>
> >>>>I’ve been an iPhone user for four years, ever since the original
> >>>>iPhone 3G S came out with VoiceOver support in June 2009. What Apple
> >>>>did back then was revolutionary, completely opening up a wealth of
> >>>>apps and services to people with vision impairments without the need
> >>>>to purchase extra assistive technologies at prices that were again
> >>>>the amount of the phone they were supposed to make accessible.
> >>>>Instead, VoiceOver, the screen reader for iOS, was bundled with the
> >>>>operating system for free.
> >>>>
> >>>>At the same time, Google also announced first steps in accessibility
> >>>>for Android. But this paled by comparison, offering little more than
> >>>>a command shell for the Android platform with some speech output.
> >>>>
> >>>>Later, TalkBack came about and gave at least some access to Android
> >>>>apps in Android 2.x. However, this access was still very limited
> >>>>compared to Apple’s model, as Jamie Teh points out in a blog post.
> >>>>
> >>>>In October 2011, Android 4.0 AKA Ice Cream Sandwich came out, and
> >>>>compared to what was offered in previous versions, was a big step
> >>>>forward in terms of accessibility. Not quite there yet, as this AFB
> >>>>review spells out, it offered touch screen access for the first
> >>>>time, more than two years after Apple came out with VoiceOver, and
> >>>>with a model that still left a lot to be desired.
> >>>>
> >>>>The biggest step forward came in June 2012, when Google announced
> >>>>Android 4.1 AKA Jelly Bean. With it came a revised model of touch
> >>>>screen access, called Explore By Touch, that closely resembles the
> >>>>model Apple, and now also Microsoft, have employed. Similar gestures
> >>>>allow for easy transition between platforms.
> >>>>
> >>>>We had just started work on accessible Firefox for Android, and
> >>>>Jelly Bean meant that we had to add quite some magic to make it
> >>>>work. But we did, and the warm reception and good feedback from the
> >>>>blind and low vision community has been humbling and inspirational!
> >>>>
> >>>>So when with Android 4.2, and especially the 4.2.2 updates, the
> >>>>gesture recognition seemed to solidify and become more reliable, I
> >>>>decided that it was time to give Android a serious chance to replace
> >>>>my iPhone as my regular smartphone device. I was also inspired by
> >>>>this MACWORLD podcast episode, where Andy Ihnatko talks about his
> >>>>switch from an iPhone 4S to an Android device, not from an
> >>>>accessibility, but from a general usability point of view. After
> >>>>all, Android has matured quite a bit, and I wanted to take advantage
> >>>>of that and finally use Firefox for Android full-time!
> >>>>
> >>>>First steps
> >>>>
> >>>>So on the 23rd of March, I got my shiny new Nexus 4. I decided to go
> >>>>for a Google phone because those get the latest updates of Android
> >>>>fastest. Moreover, they come with a stock user interface, nothing
> >>>>home-grown like the HTC Sense or Samsung Galaxy devices have. On my
> >>>>partner’s HTC One, for example, a TalkBack user cannot even use the
> >>>>dial pad to enter a phone number.
> >>>>
> >>>>The hardware is quite OK. The phone feels solid, the glass surface
> >>>>on the front and back feel smooth and pleasant to the touch. The
> >>>>phone quality is a bit muffled both on the sending as well as the
> >>>>receiving end. My best friend who has a slight hearing problem had
> >>>>trouble understanding me. The speaker on the back also leaves a bit
> >>>>to be desired, esp since the speaker in the iPhone 4S that I am used
> >>>>to is quite good. I also found out during the course of my testing
> >>>>that I have occasional problems with Wifi connections becoming very
> >>>>slow, download rates plunging or downloads breaking up alltogether.
> >>>>Deleting and re-adding the access point entry seems to have, at
> >>>>least temporarily, fixed the issue. This is also being discussed
> >>>>lively in the Android project issue tracker, so is nothing specific
> >>>>to my device alone.
> >>>>
> >>>>I was betrayed of the initial setup experience. No matter what I
> >>>>tried, the gesture that was described in the Jelly Bean
> >>>>accessibility guide for both the Nexus 4 and Nexus 7 devices, didn’t
> >>>>work. TalkBack would not start at all. So my sighted partner had to
> >>>>do that setup for me. We could then turn on TalkBack. After an
> >>>>update to Jelly Bean 4.2.2, we could also enable the quick button
> >>>>and gesture sequence to turn on TalkBack while the phone is running
> >>>>regularly. This experience did not leave that good of an impression
> >>>>with me.
> >>>>
> >>>>Setting up accounts was a breeze. To be more flexible, I got my
> >>>>calendars and contacts off of iCloud and store them in an OwnCloud
> >>>>installation at my web space provider’s server. I didn’t want to go
> >>>>the Google Contacts route because of recent announcements that left
> >>>>me uncertain whether this would be supported across platforms in the
> >>>>future. For OwnCloud, I installed a CalDAV and CardDAV provider
> >>>>software from the Play Store that works like a charm with the Nexus
> >>>>4.
> >>>>
> >>>>However, some of the stock apps like Calendar don’t work that well
> >>>>with TalkBack, or at least not if one is used to the excellent
> >>>>support of Calendar in iOS.
> >>>>
> >>>>BUMMER! Calendar works signifficantly less good with TalkBack than
> >>>>the Calendar app on iOS does with VoiceOver.
> >>>>
> >>>>Multi-lingual input
> >>>>
> >>>>Because I am writing in both English and German frequently, I wanted
> >>>>a way to quickly switch between these two input languages. The
> >>>>problem with one is that, if I write the other language, the
> >>>>auto-correct will often try to deduce German words out of English
> >>>>vocabulary, or vice versa. Fortunately, this is as convenient as on
> >>>>iOS once set up. In Languages and Input Settings, with the stock
> >>>>Android keyboard, one needs to disable the System Language checkbox
> >>>>and then enable the languages one wants to have supported. Next to
> >>>>the space bar, there is now a new button that cycles through
> >>>>available languages.
> >>>>
> >>>>BUMMER: iOS does announce the new language switched to, TalkBack doesn’t.
> >>>>
> >>>>This can be a real productivity killer if one uses more than two
> >>>>languages frequently.
> >>>>
> >>>>The next problem arises with German umlauts. Sighted people long-tap
> >>>>the a, o and u characters for the ä, ö and ü characters, and s for
> >>>>the ß character. TalkBack users have a big problem here, since
> >>>>neither TalkBack nor the alternate screen reader Spiel allow for
> >>>>keys to be long-tapped. On iOS, when in touch-typing mode, one
> >>>>touches the letter in question and leaves the finger there, taps the
> >>>>screen with a second finger, and can then double-tap and hold to
> >>>>simulate a long-tap on the letter, and finally choose the relevant
> >>>>special character. Since iOS 6, a German keyboard with dedicated
> >>>>umlaut characters is also available, and on the iPad, even the ß
> >>>>character has a dedicated key.
> >>>>
> >>>>On Android, the stock keyboard does not come with such extra keys,
> >>>>and accessibility does not allow to bring up the umlauts.
> >>>>Alternative keyboards from the Play Store such as the SwiftKey or
> >>>>the “German keyboard with Umlauts” app offer no accessible
> >>>>keyboards. It appears that accessibility is tightly integrated with
> >>>>the Android keyboard alone. Asking around in the community did also
> >>>>not yield any positive result on this matter.
> >>>>
> >>>>BUMMER! No umlauts for blind users on Android! This also is true for
> >>>>accented characters in French, Spanish or other languages.
> >>>>
> >>>>Text editing is another problem that lags behind terribly in Android
> >>>>if you do not use an external keyboard. On iOS, one can control the
> >>>>cursor, do text selection, do editing functions such as cut, copy
> >>>>and paste. On Android, there are gestures to move by character,
> >>>>word, or paragraph, but there is no way to select text or bring up
> >>>>the editing functions of a text field in a controlled fashion. I do
> >>>>not want to have to always use an external keyboard!
> >>>>
> >>>>Moreover, if
> >
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