[Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals do you have in your city?

Wed Jan 10 15:32:30 UTC 2018

So Jim, following up on your point, I once found myself in a meeting with
advocates for these signals. I stated that we had one in Baltimore that
really was very loud and that even for the blind who are to benefit from it,
it really is distracting. The response I got was that I was right about that
one but that it clearly had been installed incorrectly. Well, they are not
going to reinstall it and the installers are not experts in blindness, blind
people or any of the rest of it. In the best practices for installation,
many of the APS units will have an arrow that vibrates, one for each street
served by the APS. Best practices are that these point directly across the
street for which it serves. It often has been my experience though that they
are not perfectly aligned so one needs to use traffic alignment skills to
achieve this purpose. Also, Dave's point always needs to be stressed. Where
the signals exist, they are not to tell one when it is safe to cross; they
certainly don't assure a safe crossing either. All they can do is tell the
pedestrian that the cycle has reached the point when it is appropriate to
cross. A blind traveler still needs to use the traffic monitoring skills she
has prior to crossing. 
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Jim Barbour via Electronics-Talk
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:48 AM
To: Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances
Cc: Jim Barbour
Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals do
you have in your city?

I would add that many blind pedestrians feel hampered, not helped, but
APSes.  It masks the traffic noise that is the really reliable way to
determine when it is safe to cross the street.

The appeal of an app is that you can easily decide when you want to hear the
status of the light, and when you want to hear the traffic noise.

Jim

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 02:42:53PM +0000, Andrews, David B (DEED) via
Electronics-Talk wrote:
> An APS "never" tells you when it is "safe" to cross an intersection. It
can only tell you the state of the signals.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> David Andrews | Chief Technology Officer Minnesota Department of 
> Employment and Economic Development State Services for the Blind
> 2200 University Ave West, Suite 240, St. Paul MN 55114
> Direct: 651-539-2294
> Web | Twitter | Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Gerald Levy via Electronics-Talk
> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:59 AM
> To: Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances 
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Gerald Levy <bwaylimited at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals do
you have in your city?
> 
> 
> But what about the majority of blind pedestrians who do not own smart
phones?  How would they benefit from an app that could alert a smart phone
user when it is safe to cross an intersection, even if such an app could
even be developed in the first place?  The traffic signal would still need
an audible alert so that it would benefit all blind pedestrians and not just
those with smart phones in order to comply with the ADA, regardless of the
expense to the municipality.
> 
> Gerald
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tracy Carcione via Electronics-Talk
> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 8:29 AM
> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
> Cc: Tracy Carcione
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals do
you have in your city?
> 
> Hi Jim.
> I also live on a quieter street that crosses a very busy one, and I had
the exact problem you describe--figuring out a lull in traffic from when I
had the light.  It's also an offset intersection, with a lot of turning
traffic.
> As I said, I had to fight hard to get an APS there, but, every time I was
thinking of giving up, I'd misjudge the light, and I'd grit my teeth and go
back to the battle.  I should not have to risk my life, literally, to cross
the street.  Well, no more than anyone else does. To heck with what it cost
the county.  I pay taxes, and my life has value in itself.
> 
> I have been wondering for years if it would be practical to develop a
smart phone app that would say when the walk sign was on.  It would have to
be absolutely real-time, and reliable.  But, if it could be done, it ought
to be a lot cheaper than APS's are now. And maybe there's a way to make it
work with any traffic light one encounters.  Do you think such a thing could
work?
> Tracy
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via Electronics-Talk
> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:28 PM
> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
> Cc: Jim McCarthy
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals do
you have in your city?
> 
> Tracy,
> I do think that the end point is what you suggest, to have one at every
intersection that has a traffic light. When there is new development, they
should be put in at the get go as you suggest they are. In other cases, I do
think the more complicated intersections should be first; I think that if a
traffic light needs repair or replacement, an accessible signal should take
its place; and finally, someday there will be accessible signals at every
intersection. I did not always think that it needed to be an equality thing
but that is the way I am headed now also. I live on a north south street
that is not very busy. It is a plus intersection though so my street crosses
a very busy street, one of the more busy in that part of the city and one
that crosses the entire city toward its north end. The busy street is not
even all that wide so the intersection is not geometrically complicated. It
does not have an audible signal but might benefit from one. The reason is
that there is often not traffic on my street crossing. There are some gaps
on the busy street but a blind travelers is left guessing, "is there a gap
because the light is favorable?" Perhaps, it is just a traffic lag and one
may need to race across. Having an audible traffic signal would take away
the guess work. Is this the most important intersection in the city for a
signal? Probably not but there would be benefit in having one. I have lived
in that neighborhood for many years and feel safe crossing so I have not
asked for this yet.
> Jim
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via Electronics-Talk
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 11:14 AM
> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
> Cc: Tracy Carcione
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals do
you have in your city?
> 
> Thanks Jim.  I hadn't thought much about what you bring up.  What criteria
do you think they should use?  Put in an accessible signal at the most
complicated intersections, and, when those are covered, move on to less
complicated ones?  Should the goal be to have an accessible signal wherever
there is a crossing signal?  I didn't used to think so, but now I'm starting
to think that I have the same right to know the status of the light as my
sighted neighbors have.
> 
> I had to fight tooth and claw to get the first signal in my county.  I had
to get my state assemblywoman involved, and threaten the county with an ADA
lawsuit.  But now, a few years later, they have put in 2 more signals on the
main drag all on their own.  They seem to be putting them where there is new
development--new businesses going in.  I'm not sure what their criteria are,
but I am glad to have them.
> Tracy
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via Electronics-Talk
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 10:23 AM
> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
> Cc: Jim McCarthy
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals do
you have in your city?
> 
> I have been reading this thread with some interest. It seems to me that
much of the time, the answer will be like Mike has said here that there is
some certain number in his area and he knows this because he asked for and
got their installation. What I have not noticed in the thread is a reason
for knowing how many there are. This is information a city transportation or
traffic department probably has but I think the number a jurisdiction has
does not matter very much. The trend of installation is more important to
indicate progress in the installation. It still bothers me that many
jurisdictions react as Fort Collins did for Mike, that is that they install
them in areas that blind people frequent or only when a blind person or
enough of us make the request. The result is that in many of the places
these are installed, they do not offer actual assistance to blind travelers
and in places where they would offer that help, they are not installed
because there is not an entity expected to be frequented by people who are
> blind or because no requests have been made.    I suppose though that if
the
> trigger for installation is that there has been a request, I am glad Fort
Collins has responded as they have. In many instances, the answer is that
they are expensive so we can't or won't install. To me the right approach is
to have as a part of a long term transportation plan the goal of installing
some number per year. It also strikes me as best to rank intersections based
on criteria so that the really complicated ones receive the devices also.
> Jim McCarthy
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Mike Sedmak via Electronics-Talk
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 5:25 PM
> To: Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances
> Cc: Mike Sedmak
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals do
you have in your city?
> 
> We have five in my corner of Fort Collins, CO.  I called the city traffic
operations engineer and asked him to install them on all the crossings I
frequent.  I would recommend asking for them in your area if you like them.
> 
> 
> Our city ops said they are relatively expensive, so they only install them
when requested.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike
> 
> Sent from my iPhone, please forgive the typos.
> 
> > On Jan 4, 2018, at 1:19 PM, Andy Baracco via Electronics-Talk
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >
> > Interestingly enough, I don't think that we have that many in the 
> > entire
> city of Los Angeles.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike via Electronics-Talk"
> > <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > To: <Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: "Mike" <mrmikie273 at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 2:29 AM
> > Subject: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals 
> > do you
> have in your city?
> >
> >
> >> How many accessible pedestrian signals do you have in your city or 
> >> area? In the greater Daytona Beach Florida we now have 32 of them.
> >>
> >> Thank you
> >>
> >> Mike
> >> 
> 
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