[Electronics-Talk] Q&A on Amazon

Santiago Velasquez zanty410 at gmail.com
Mon Aug 14 02:30:59 UTC 2023 

Hi to you all,

This is a very interesting discussion and as a vision impaired person myself, I applaud any effort to make sure that things work for all of us.

I wanted to jump in here and provide some context as to why big companies often don't make their products and services accessible. Before I do that, I have to point out that my background is electrical engineering, so I obviously do not have all the answers, but this should help a little bit.

The first reason as to why companies do not make things accessible is: they don't know how to. The number of engineers, programmers, and other developers who have lived experience and understand how using different layouts, languages and programming environments affects the accessibility of a product is extremely limited. I won't go too much into detail since this could be a PhD on its own, but how many vision impaired individuals, or people with disabilities do we know that code websites. Across the world, there are not many. Apple, Google, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft and other tech companies have hired people with disabilities, but in comparison to those who do not have any lived experience, they are absolutely minuscule. Please understand, you can learn how to make things accessible even if you do not have lived experience, but this brings me to my second point.

Future in current engineers do not have any reason to learn how to make products accessible because very few universities teach this. Furthermore, while legislation does exist, it's extremely limited in terms of how to properly implemented. There are web accessibility standards, but if you give them to a software engineer to use, they won't guarantee that the product will be accessible. This applies all over the world, not in just one specific country.

Believe it or not, it can be cheaper to have a lawsuit in your hands than it is to hire engineers that can make your products and services accessible; people who know how to make things accessible are not easy to come bye.

By the way, this email is not to discourage anybody, but just in case people were not aware of these points, I thought I would shed some light from behind the curtain. I do not work for any of the big companies, this is knowledge I have gathered from working in the industry for a little while.


Regards
Santi

> On 14 Aug 2023, at 12:12 pm, Sylvia Reid via Electronics-Talk <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Many of us who are blind, especially us older folks,  were raised not to complain or “cause trouble.”  We were supposed to be grateful for whatever we had.  I’m not knocking true gratitude; I’m very grateful, but there’s a time for advocacy.  Also, many of us have gotten jaded with advocacy that hasn’t worked and sometimes has even brought us sharp criticism from. other blind  people.  A popular, very effective, time-tested trick that powerful groups play on those less powerful is to pit them against each other.  Let’s work together and find out both how much the NFB cares and what we can do to enlist their support.  The more of us care the more likely they are to help us out.  I must confess that, after long, frustrating sessions  of almost getting something bought on several websites, I’ve put my efforts elsewhere.  I’m not proud of this, but there are only 24 hours in a day and so much work to be done. 
> 
> Sylvia Reid    
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 13, 2023, at 9:34 PM, Christopher Chaltain via Electronics-Talk <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> We've debated this on other lists, but the best way to ensure a company isn't going to do anything is to keep them from knowing they have to do something. Obviously you may be right, and they may turn   a deaf ear to you, but in my opinion, they need to know there's an issue before they're going to be able to fix it.
>> 
>> As far as why they would do it, it would be for the same reason they developed VoiceView for their FireOS platform.
>> 
>> BTW, there's also filing a complaint with the DOJ under the ADA, which isn't hard and anyone can do. Again, this may not get anywhere, but I think all things should be considered and there are some things people can do besides sitting back and expecting someone else like the NFB, a volunteer organization of fellow blind people, to do all of the work for them.
>> 
>> --
>> Christopher (AKA CJ) =>÷
>> Chaltain at Outlook, USA
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Electronics-Talk <electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini via Electronics-Talk
>> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2023 6:38 PM
>> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances' <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Nicole Torcolini <torcolini at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] Q&A on Amazon
>> 
>>       Talking to Amazon about it is like talking to a brick wall. I have brought up various issues with their accessibility department, like the fact that the poorly designed address selection for Vine has caused me to send addresses to the wrong address on six occasions, but they just do what the normal customer service would do and basically ignore any of the accessibility feedback.
>>       They also ignore reality. When I once mentioned that sellers were not answering my questions in the Q&A section, the person said that the seller was supposed to answer them. If I get answers, it is normally from other customers, and, if I do get an answer from the seller, it is normally just repeating what was in the description, a picture/video, or an incomplete answer.
>>       I get where you are coming from with your questions, particularly with notifying the NFB, but the questions about notifying Amazon are rather pointless. Why would a large company like Amazon want to waste money on accessibility, especially if it gets in the way of some of the features for the sighted?
>> 
>> Nicole
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Electronics-Talk <electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain via Electronics-Talk
>> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2023 3:46 PM
>> To: Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Christopher Chaltain <chaltain at outlook.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] Q&A on Amazon
>> 
>> This raises a few questions in my mind:
>> 1. How do you know the NFB isn't doing anything?
>> 2. When did this issue Pop up?
>> 3. What have you done to notify the NFB about the problem? What about Amazon?
>> 
>> This is just me, but I don't think a law suit should be the first card played by the blind. I think bringing the issue up with Amazon and try to resolve the issue before going to the lawyers an courts. I think this just paints blind organizations in a poor light. Of course, I'm not opposed to lawsuits if everything else has failed.
>> 
>> --
>> Christopher (AKA CJ) =>÷
>> Chaltain at Outlook, USA
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Electronics-Talk <electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Dennis Long via Electronics-Talk
>> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2023 4:24 PM
>> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Dennis Long <dennisl1982 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] Q&A on Amazon
>> 
>> Because they don't care.  It isn't the NFB self-driving car not enough publicity
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Electronics-Talk <electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via Electronics-Talk
>> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2023 5:08 PM
>> To: Dennis Long via Electronics-Talk <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Gerald Levy <bwaylimited at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] Q&A on Amazon
>> 
>> 
>> Since Amazon is now the world's largest merchant, why isn't the NFB getting involved and demanding that their web site be made more blind friendly or else they will take legal action? Or are they afraid of big bad Jeff Bezos?
>> 
>> 
>> Gerald
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 8/13/2023 4:16 PM, Dennis Long via Electronics-Talk wrote:
>>> Unfortunately they don't care.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Electronics-Talk<electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org>  On Behalf
>>> Of Nicole Torcolini via Electronics-Talk
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2023 4:10 PM
>>> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Nicole Torcolini<torcolini at comcast.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] Q&A on Amazon
>>> 
>>>     Amazon is not the only company who is doing this, but it does
>>> seem
>> to
>>> be the worst. There is a growing trend that, when changes are made to
>>> websites--I assume supposedly to make the user experience better for
>>> sighted people--accessibility/usability is left in the dust, with
>>> changes often introducing new accessibility problems.
>>>     As for the Q&A section problem, a quick Google search shows that
>>> sighted people are asking about this, too. There unfortunately does
>>> not seem to be a good answer (pun not intended).
>>>     Not to thread jack, but, on a related note, I am planning to
>>> start a
>> 
>>> petition to Amazon about the lack of accessibility/usability at every
>>> step of their purchasing process, including delivery. Please email
>>> nbtorco at gmail.com  if you are interested in helping draft the petition
>>> or have stories to tell.
>>> 
>>> Nicole
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Electronics-Talk<electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org>  On Behalf
>>> Of Dennis Long via Electronics-Talk
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2023 11:37 AM
>>> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Dennis Long<dennisl1982 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] Q&A on Amazon
>>> 
>>> We need to complain about it.  With amazon's poor track record of
>>> fixing things they break I expect this not  to be fixed.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Electronics-Talk<electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org>  On Behalf
>>> Of cheez via Electronics-Talk
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2023 2:33 PM
>>> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc:cheez at cox.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] Q&A on Amazon
>>> 
>>> Maybe they are akin to the geniuses at Apple.  They too seem to not
>>> leave things alone when they do updates.
>>> 
>>> Vince
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Electronics-Talk<electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org>  On Behalf
>>> Of Gerald Levy via Electronics-Talk
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2023 8:47 AM
>>> To: Tracy Carcione via Electronics-Talk<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Gerald Levy<bwaylimited at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] Q&A on Amazon
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Yes, I have noticed this change also.  When I click on the question
>>> link, nothinghappens.  Also, there is no longer a link labeled, see
>>> all
>> reviews.
>>> It used to be possible to get to the questions from the customer
>>> reviews page, but no longer.  Why can't the geniuses at Amazon leave
>>> well enough alone?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Gerald
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 8/13/2023 11:13 AM, Tracy Carcione via Electronics-Talk wrote:
>>>> I've gotten good info on Amazon from the "ask a question" section,
>>>> but now I can't find it at all.  I see a link that says "10 answered
>>>> questions", but when I hit enter on it it goes nowhere.  Jaws find
>>>> doesn't find any other instances, either.
>>>> 
>>>> Did Amazon do away with this feature, or is it just hiding where I'm
>>>> not finding it?  Am I doing something wrong?
>>>> 
>>>> Tracy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Electronics-Talk mailing list
>>>> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbne/
>>>> t.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01
>>>> %7C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaa
>>>> aaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4
>>>> wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%
>>>> 7C&sdata=OE8QfF4ZNG4vNRs1NpxehtCg2sDSTbpnMPgySkwjb%2BY%3D&reserved=0
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Electronics-Talk:
>>>> http://nfbne/
>>>> t.org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org%2Fbwaylim&dat
>>>> a=05%7C01%7C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb43
>>>> 5aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8ey
>>>> JWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C30
>>>> 00%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BW06iB9bdgFEXkEmU3Y%2BreA0iaQ7TGaNCMkxDxEkdG8%3D&
>>>> reserved=0
>>>> i
>>>> ted%40verizon.net
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Electronics-Talk mailing list
>>> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet/
>>> .org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7
>>> C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa
>>> a%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjA
>>> wMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sd
>>> ata=OE8QfF4ZNG4vNRs1NpxehtCg2sDSTbpnMPgySkwjb%2BY%3D&reserved=0
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Electronics-Talk:
>>> http://nfbnet/
>>> .org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org%2Fcheez%2540&da
>>> ta=05%7C01%7C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb43
>>> 5aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
>>> WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000
>>> %7C%7C%7C&sdata=uLu4OTGmpD1WHzKZjPWGpfo4OufunOt2lX%2FbRDTHC34%3D&reser
>>> ved=0
>>> cox.ne
>>> t
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Electronics-Talk mailing list
>>> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet/
>>> .org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7
>>> C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa
>>> a%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjA
>>> wMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sd
>>> ata=OE8QfF4ZNG4vNRs1NpxehtCg2sDSTbpnMPgySkwjb%2BY%3D&reserved=0
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Electronics-Talk:
>>> http://nfbnet/
>>> .org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org%2Fdennisl1&data
>>> =05%7C01%7C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a
>>> aaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWI
>>> joiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7
>>> C%7C%7C&sdata=iW3PiRu4936sc7DpGp02asT9tgLDfWMgHbpXpxeZcsk%3D&reserved=
>>> 0
>>> 982%40
>>> gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Electronics-Talk mailing list
>>> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet/
>>> .org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7
>>> C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa
>>> a%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjA
>>> wMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sd
>>> ata=OE8QfF4ZNG4vNRs1NpxehtCg2sDSTbpnMPgySkwjb%2BY%3D&reserved=0
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Electronics-Talk:
>>> http://nfbnet/
>>> .org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org%2Ftorcolin&data
>>> =05%7C01%7C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a
>>> aaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWI
>>> joiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7
>>> C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BaOdF%2FLIoqEhjO6HKZk2NAPH7tLil1QCSRAIwRCQ7Zc%3D&reser
>>> ved=0
>>> i%40co
>>> mcast.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Electronics-Talk mailing list
>>> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet/
>>> .org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7
>>> C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa
>>> a%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjA
>>> wMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sd
>>> ata=OE8QfF4ZNG4vNRs1NpxehtCg2sDSTbpnMPgySkwjb%2BY%3D&reserved=0
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Electronics-Talk:
>>> http://nfbnet/
>>> .org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org%2Fdennisl1&data
>>> =05%7C01%7C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a
>>> aaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWI
>>> joiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7
>>> C%7C%7C&sdata=iW3PiRu4936sc7DpGp02asT9tgLDfWMgHbpXpxeZcsk%3D&reserved=
>>> 0
>>> 982%40
>>> gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Electronics-Talk mailing list
>>> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet/
>>> .org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org&data=05%7C01%7
>>> C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa
>>> a%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjA
>>> wMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sd
>>> ata=OE8QfF4ZNG4vNRs1NpxehtCg2sDSTbpnMPgySkwjb%2BY%3D&reserved=0
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Electronics-Talk:
>>> http://nfbnet/
>>> .org%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Felectronics-talk_nfbnet.org%2Fbwaylimi&data
>>> =05%7C01%7C%7C157a1d1d51d145b63ea908db9c43d905%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a
>>> aaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638275587441522848%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWI
>>> joiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7
>>> C%7C%7C&sdata=KjK5PgfP%2BX1nkF1eSh3CxQIVnUVQ%2FqJfacOSS1abl80%3D&reser
>>> ved=0
>>> ted%40verizon.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-Talk mailing list
>> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Electronics-Talk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/dennisl1982%40
>> gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-Talk mailing list
>> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Electronics-Talk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40out
>> look.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-Talk mailing list
>> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Electronics-Talk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/torcolini%40co
>> mcast.net
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-Talk mailing list
>> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Electronics-Talk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/chaltain%40outlook.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Electronics-Talk mailing list
>> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Electronics-Talk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/shevra%40verizon.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Electronics-Talk mailing list
> Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Electronics-Talk:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/zanty410%40gmail.com

More information about the Electronics-Talk mailing list