[Faith-talk] article4

Mon Nov 10 12:42:34 UTC 2008

You're right.  I want to believe what I want to believe, and it
doesn't matter what God's book has to say about it.  I mean, the book
says a lot about women and their place in society, and the book
doesn't say anything about us females being consecrated.  But the book
leaves us hanging as far as what to do with unwed teen mothers, which
there are a lot of.  You've obviously seen my "new school prayer"
post.
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Well, you just summed it up for me.  You want to believe what you want to
> believe, what God says doesn't matter in the end.  Am I right?
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article4
>
>
>> Hah.  This is the only article worth reading to me.  Both sides in the
>> case are right, but I believe I have a right to take the side I'm on
>> because I don't like to see people get hurt and see them be
>> discriminated against and placed below the normals, the sighted folks,
>> the able-bodied, and the normal-thinkers.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 4
>>> Albert Mohler
>>> President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
>>>
>>> October 27, 2008
>>>
>>> Writing more than twenty years ago, Thomas Sowell described the basic
>>> worldview clash we observe today as a struggle between "constrained" and
>>> "unconstrained" visions of humanity.  The fundamental distinction between
>>> these two visions is moral, but the thrust of each is ideological.  The
>>> constrained vision may be considered basically conservative, while the
>>> unconstrained vision is basically liberal, in modern terms.
>>>
>>> There is great wisdom in Sowell's analysis, and in his book, The Conflict
>>> of
>>> Visions. But the greatest achievement of this book is Sowell's insistence
>>> that political struggles have ideological origins.
>>>
>>> This is certainly true with reference to the political struggle over
>>> same-sex marriage.  In California, the controversy is over "Proposition
>>> 8"
>>> on the November ballot -- a measure that would amend the state's
>>> constitution to establish marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
>>> Voters in Arizona and Florida will face measures that would disallow
>>> same-sex marriages.
>>>
>>> Nationwide, we face efforts to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (a
>>> repeal
>>> championed by Sen. Barack Obama) and to achieve same-sex marriage through
>>> the courts.  State by state, the issue is constantly reshaped and
>>> reframed.
>>>
>>> At the same time, there is a sense that the public is shifting its
>>> perception of the issue.  When the issue is framed as simple fairness,
>>> Americans increasingly seem to tire of arguing that sexual behavior or
>>> orientation (at least in terms of homosexuality) should matter when it
>>> comes
>>> to the basic rights associated with marriage.  This trend is especially
>>> noticeable among the young.  Younger Americans, by and large, see
>>> homosexuality as part of the recognizable landscape and within the normal
>>> range of human behaviors.
>>>
>>> All this represents a massive shift in perception over a relatively short
>>> period of time.  The activists promoting the normalization of
>>> homosexuality
>>> have been tremendously successful in their efforts.  The mainstream
>>> media,
>>> the educational elites, and various culture shapers have pushed this
>>> cause.
>>> Today, on the average college or university campus, homosexuality is not
>>> considered to be a major moral issue.  Any discrimination against
>>> homosexuals, on the other hand, is considered a moral issue of urgency
>>> and
>>> outrage.  In much of the culture, it is considered increasingly immoral
>>> to
>>> assert that homosexuality is immoral.
>>>
>>> There is no real ground for compromise between these two visions and
>>> perspectives.  Both sides frame their argument in moral terms.  Advocates
>>> of
>>> the constrained vision argue that humanity is heterosexual by default and
>>> design and that homosexuality is thus an aberration to be sanctioned and
>>> discouraged.  Advocates of the unconstrained vision argue that
>>> homosexuality
>>> is just one among several acceptable options for humanity.
>>>
>>> This framework for analysis helps to explain why the two opposing sides
>>> in
>>> this controversy see the issue in such starkly different terms.
>>>
>>> Those opposed to same-sex marriage see marriage as an essentially
>>> heterosexual institution that is fundamental to human happiness and the
>>> well-being of civilization.  Those who support same-sex marriage see
>>> limiting marriage to heterosexuals as a way of exercising patriarchal
>>> oppression against sexual minorities.  Marriage is seen, therefore, as an
>>> obstacle to human happiness and autonomy that must be either destroyed or
>>> radically revised.  The quest for this radical revision is seen as an act
>>> of
>>> human liberation.  To the conservative, this is a mortal blow directed at
>>> the very heart of the culture.
>>>
>>> Moral conservatives see homosexual behaviors as matters of grave moral
>>> concern.  Moral liberals and libertarians see homosexuality as no more
>>> morally significant than the color of one's eyes.  It's just part of what
>>> makes some people who they are.
>>>
>>> Adding credence to Sowell's argument, a person's position on same-sex
>>> marriage is a very good predictor of positions held on other issues as
>>> well.
>>>  Careful observers know that this is no coincidence.  A cadre of liberal
>>> Hollywood celebrities supports same-sex marriage as what they call a
>>> civil
>>> rights issue and recently held fundraisers that produced millions of
>>> dollars
>>> to defeat Proposition 8.  Meanwhile, opposition to same-sex marriage is
>>> most
>>> discernable among conservative Christians and other conservative groups
>>> like
>>> the Mormons.
>>>
>>> The middle ground is fast disappearing, even as arguments based in a
>>> framework of natural law seem to carry no public force.  This leaves
>>> conservative Christians -- evangelicals in the main -- as the bulwark of
>>> opposition to same-sex marriage.  For evangelicals, the question is
>>> always a
>>> question of what the Bible teaches, and the Bible straightforwardly
>>> presents
>>> homosexual behaviors as immoral and sinful -- and in stark terms.
>>>
>>> Believers committed to biblical authority will find no way to avoid this
>>> controversy, and no ground for accepting the "fairness" argument.  If the
>>> Bible is the revealed Word of God, then we know that homosexuality is a
>>> sin
>>> of great spiritual consequence.  Those who reject the authority of the
>>> Bible
>>> will, in the end, likely come to accept some argument for the
>>> normalization
>>> of homosexuality and homosexual relationships.
>>>
>>> Despite their massive and contentious collision over this great question,
>>> the two opposing sides in this controversy are agreed on one major point
>>> --
>>> the importance of the issue.  Both sides believe that the victory of
>>> their
>>> position on this issue is a precondition for true human happiness and
>>> human
>>> thriving.  And, truth be known, both sides see the other camp as a threat
>>> to
>>> human happiness and well-being.
>>>
>>> To a significant degree, these opposing camps define almost all of
>>> reality
>>> in starkly different terms.  Both sides bring energy and passion to the
>>> public square.  Both sides see the controversy as a battle for the future
>>> of
>>> civilization.
>>>
>>> On that point, at least, both sides are right.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583981/
>>>
>>> Corey Cook
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>>
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