[Faith-talk] article4

Mon Nov 10 19:33:44 UTC 2008

ROTFL about the Jesus going to Mars thing.  Next thing you know, the
cyantology people will say that. lol
Beth

On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
> Okay, but I can believe that Jesus went to mars, and firmly choose to keep
> that belief even though the Bible says nothing about Jesus going to mars.
> So, in the end, it's foolish of me to cling to the belief that Jesus went to
> mars if the Bible says nothing about Jesus going to mars.
>
> Now, with issues like unwed teen mothers, the Bible may not directly answer
> that, but it's not intended to.  Anyone want to help me out here?  There is
> more I should say, but feel unsure as to what.
>
>
>
> +-+-+-
>
>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
> there any rock like our God.
>  1 Samuel 2:2
> ~~~
>
> Alan D Wheeler
> awheeler at neb.rr.com
> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
> Skype: redwheel1
> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
> www.theqonline.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article4
>
>
>> You're right.  I want to believe what I want to believe, and it
>> doesn't matter what God's book has to say about it.  I mean, the book
>> says a lot about women and their place in society, and the book
>> doesn't say anything about us females being consecrated.  But the book
>> leaves us hanging as far as what to do with unwed teen mothers, which
>> there are a lot of.  You've obviously seen my "new school prayer"
>> post.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Well, you just summed it up for me.  You want to believe what you want to
>>> believe, what God says doesn't matter in the end.  Am I right?
>>>
>>>
>>> +-+-+-
>>>
>>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither
>>> is
>>> there any rock like our God.
>>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>>> ~~~
>>>
>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 12:45 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] article4
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hah.  This is the only article worth reading to me.  Both sides in the
>>>> case are right, but I believe I have a right to take the side I'm on
>>>> because I don't like to see people get hurt and see them be
>>>> discriminated against and placed below the normals, the sighted folks,
>>>> the able-bodied, and the normal-thinkers.
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>> On 11/9/08, Corey Cook <ccook01 at knology.net> wrote:
>>>>> What's Really at Stake in the Gay Marriage Debate? Part 4
>>>>> Albert Mohler
>>>>> President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
>>>>>
>>>>> October 27, 2008
>>>>>
>>>>> Writing more than twenty years ago, Thomas Sowell described the basic
>>>>> worldview clash we observe today as a struggle between "constrained"
>>>>> and
>>>>> "unconstrained" visions of humanity.  The fundamental distinction
>>>>> between
>>>>> these two visions is moral, but the thrust of each is ideological.  The
>>>>> constrained vision may be considered basically conservative, while the
>>>>> unconstrained vision is basically liberal, in modern terms.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is great wisdom in Sowell's analysis, and in his book, The
>>>>> Conflict
>>>>> of
>>>>> Visions. But the greatest achievement of this book is Sowell's
>>>>> insistence
>>>>> that political struggles have ideological origins.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is certainly true with reference to the political struggle over
>>>>> same-sex marriage.  In California, the controversy is over "Proposition
>>>>> 8"
>>>>> on the November ballot -- a measure that would amend the state's
>>>>> constitution to establish marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
>>>>> Voters in Arizona and Florida will face measures that would disallow
>>>>> same-sex marriages.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nationwide, we face efforts to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act (a
>>>>> repeal
>>>>> championed by Sen. Barack Obama) and to achieve same-sex marriage
>>>>> through
>>>>> the courts.  State by state, the issue is constantly reshaped and
>>>>> reframed.
>>>>>
>>>>> At the same time, there is a sense that the public is shifting its
>>>>> perception of the issue.  When the issue is framed as simple fairness,
>>>>> Americans increasingly seem to tire of arguing that sexual behavior or
>>>>> orientation (at least in terms of homosexuality) should matter when it
>>>>> comes
>>>>> to the basic rights associated with marriage.  This trend is especially
>>>>> noticeable among the young.  Younger Americans, by and large, see
>>>>> homosexuality as part of the recognizable landscape and within the
>>>>> normal
>>>>> range of human behaviors.
>>>>>
>>>>> All this represents a massive shift in perception over a relatively
>>>>> short
>>>>> period of time.  The activists promoting the normalization of
>>>>> homosexuality
>>>>> have been tremendously successful in their efforts.  The mainstream
>>>>> media,
>>>>> the educational elites, and various culture shapers have pushed this
>>>>> cause.
>>>>> Today, on the average college or university campus, homosexuality is
>>>>> not
>>>>> considered to be a major moral issue.  Any discrimination against
>>>>> homosexuals, on the other hand, is considered a moral issue of urgency
>>>>> and
>>>>> outrage.  In much of the culture, it is considered increasingly immoral
>>>>> to
>>>>> assert that homosexuality is immoral.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no real ground for compromise between these two visions and
>>>>> perspectives.  Both sides frame their argument in moral terms.
>>>>> Advocates
>>>>> of
>>>>> the constrained vision argue that humanity is heterosexual by default
>>>>> and
>>>>> design and that homosexuality is thus an aberration to be sanctioned
>>>>> and
>>>>> discouraged.  Advocates of the unconstrained vision argue that
>>>>> homosexuality
>>>>> is just one among several acceptable options for humanity.
>>>>>
>>>>> This framework for analysis helps to explain why the two opposing sides
>>>>> in
>>>>> this controversy see the issue in such starkly different terms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those opposed to same-sex marriage see marriage as an essentially
>>>>> heterosexual institution that is fundamental to human happiness and the
>>>>> well-being of civilization.  Those who support same-sex marriage see
>>>>> limiting marriage to heterosexuals as a way of exercising patriarchal
>>>>> oppression against sexual minorities.  Marriage is seen, therefore, as
>>>>> an
>>>>> obstacle to human happiness and autonomy that must be either destroyed
>>>>> or
>>>>> radically revised.  The quest for this radical revision is seen as an
>>>>> act
>>>>> of
>>>>> human liberation.  To the conservative, this is a mortal blow directed
>>>>> at
>>>>> the very heart of the culture.
>>>>>
>>>>> Moral conservatives see homosexual behaviors as matters of grave moral
>>>>> concern.  Moral liberals and libertarians see homosexuality as no more
>>>>> morally significant than the color of one's eyes.  It's just part of
>>>>> what
>>>>> makes some people who they are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adding credence to Sowell's argument, a person's position on same-sex
>>>>> marriage is a very good predictor of positions held on other issues as
>>>>> well.
>>>>>  Careful observers know that this is no coincidence.  A cadre of
>>>>> liberal
>>>>> Hollywood celebrities supports same-sex marriage as what they call a
>>>>> civil
>>>>> rights issue and recently held fundraisers that produced millions of
>>>>> dollars
>>>>> to defeat Proposition 8.  Meanwhile, opposition to same-sex marriage is
>>>>> most
>>>>> discernable among conservative Christians and other conservative groups
>>>>> like
>>>>> the Mormons.
>>>>>
>>>>> The middle ground is fast disappearing, even as arguments based in a
>>>>> framework of natural law seem to carry no public force.  This leaves
>>>>> conservative Christians -- evangelicals in the main -- as the bulwark
>>>>> of
>>>>> opposition to same-sex marriage.  For evangelicals, the question is
>>>>> always a
>>>>> question of what the Bible teaches, and the Bible straightforwardly
>>>>> presents
>>>>> homosexual behaviors as immoral and sinful -- and in stark terms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Believers committed to biblical authority will find no way to avoid
>>>>> this
>>>>> controversy, and no ground for accepting the "fairness" argument.  If
>>>>> the
>>>>> Bible is the revealed Word of God, then we know that homosexuality is a
>>>>> sin
>>>>> of great spiritual consequence.  Those who reject the authority of the
>>>>> Bible
>>>>> will, in the end, likely come to accept some argument for the
>>>>> normalization
>>>>> of homosexuality and homosexual relationships.
>>>>>
>>>>> Despite their massive and contentious collision over this great
>>>>> question,
>>>>> the two opposing sides in this controversy are agreed on one major
>>>>> point
>>>>> --
>>>>> the importance of the issue.  Both sides believe that the victory of
>>>>> their
>>>>> position on this issue is a precondition for true human happiness and
>>>>> human
>>>>> thriving.  And, truth be known, both sides see the other camp as a
>>>>> threat
>>>>> to
>>>>> human happiness and well-being.
>>>>>
>>>>> To a significant degree, these opposing camps define almost all of
>>>>> reality
>>>>> in starkly different terms.  Both sides bring energy and passion to the
>>>>> public square.  Both sides see the controversy as a battle for the
>>>>> future
>>>>> of
>>>>> civilization.
>>>>>
>>>>> On that point, at least, both sides are right.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Find this article at:
>>>>> http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11583981/
>>>>>
>>>>> Corey Cook
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>
>>>>
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