[Faith-talk] Fw: Born again versus born christians or any faith members

Fri Jun 18 17:46:34 UTC 2010

Hi -- i didn't know Peter posted his mail to the list, so I'll post my 
private correspondence, which I originally thought was on list, but found it 
was going only to him. My mailer didn't pick up the list, although it was in 
the header.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any faith 
members

First, I hear you about the judgemental attitude people take in their
various churches, and I think in the end, these people will regret ever
having this attitude.  I think this attitude has offended a lot of people
throughout the ages. It gives people a false idea of what Christianity is.
But people are not perfect.  And that is true in any type of organization.

I understand rejecting organized religion because of the failures of some
organizations to protect their members.  I also want to say, however, that
"Mormons" as a group do not abuse children -- in fact they are very family
oriented and any kind of abuse is dealt with severely (as in possible
excommunication). Also, protestants as a group do not kill people -- it is a
few really bad people that use religion as a cover for their completely evil
deeds.  That is one argument against organized religion -- the bad
organizations who misuse the scriptures -- but that isn't the fault of the
other organizations.

Now as for Peter, you say "praying to the dead" -- I don't believe there is
any scriptural reference implying that Peter prayed to the dead.  He only
said in the book of 1 Peter that the Gospel is preached to them that are
dead, that they may live according to men in the flesh but be judged
according to God in the spirit -- which sounds like it means that it gives
people a chance they may not have had when physically alive.  (See 1Peter
3:18-20 and 1Peter 4:6) -- or were you not talking about St Peter?

Finally, the bible does indeed talk about Jesus feeding the hungry and
requiring his followers to follow his example.  Does this however apply to a
government or only to individuals?  In any event, the socialist approach to
government is not so much a religious choice -- to most -- in fact, isn't
there a movement to banish the word God from public places and historical
documents? Some believe they are living their religion by supporting a
socialist government.  Others don't hold that belief. I can think of 2
reasons I have heard in support of capitalism: capitalism gives people of
all strengths and weaknesses the chance to create organizations that are
mutually beneficial: for the CEO's it gives them an opportunity to produce a
successful business, and to employees it provides jobs.   and 2: it may be
hard on the persons who fall through the cracks or get locked into jobs they
don't like, but this situation also provides the more successful persons the
opportunity to practice their supposed faith and help people out. You only
hear about the scandalous businesses in the news; you don't always hear
about the ones that really work.
I think that having the government take over is one way to attack the
problem cases -- but the government is an organization like any other
organization, and people run it, so there are abuses there as well.

Anyway, politics and religion are hot topics -- no wonder you are sounding
belligerent.
Write back if you want.
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any faith
members

You got me wrong my friend and you hold no mastery over the Bible. YOu
say that "I take things out of context?" I don't know the doctorine of
christianity? How do you even know what I've read or not read on the
subject? You will be surprised my friend of what I know and don't know
quite frankly. It's this arrogance that disgust me about religion in
general. No, I didn't take context out of the gospels like feeding the
hungry, clothing the naked and taking care of the sick. This goes for
sinner and nonsinner alike being universal health care, food stamps
and housing the poor in section 8 housing. Moreover, the quote about
the information about not giving back isn't yet found in the Bible
that I read other than you must work for your daily bread and labor
fruits will bear fruition. I understand  this information and many
people with no jobs and no wealth to creat money are left dependent on
the economy with unemployment checks.
    I will also point out that I don't have an attitude either. Merely
in my estimation that I'm venting frustration to nonbelievers and
believers alike about the hard line approach. People want to know why
people are leaving organized religions? The answer is quite frankly
the judgemental noncomprimising attitude of organized christians.
There is also something called gluttony, greed, lust and things of
that sort that capitalism must feed on to exist at all. I can point
out other things in historical, public and religious context just as
equally my friend as far as GINI Index, human rights violations, and
etc that aren't christian like even to the slightest. So, the
separation of church and state like other doctorines in the U.S.A are
total bologna in my opinon. So, Peter praying  to the dead is
considered witchcraft by southern christians and also they think it's
a form of idiotry. Quotes mean nothing cause people dont' look at
context and catholics above others believe in Saints, Confessional,
holy water, purgatory and etc that protestants sadly think out of
ignorance that they will go to Hell about. Your opinion bar none is
the minority in this discussion and I'm saying this completely
objectively in the U.S.A. Look at the child molestation cases as if it
doesnt' happen elsewhere like mormons or the religious fanatical
protestants commiting terrorism and murders in the name of the Lord
all of the time.
    I am fine and the list is purpose is to talk about Faith? We can't
shove this stuff under the rug cause that is what some people claim
throughout history with religions leading to Salem Witch Trials to
child molestation confrontations with any church. Corruption and
understand with a lending of the ear and heart can resolve these
issues by us would be christians to the normal christian. Thanks for
being open and honest about your opinions on the issues and don't take
what I've said offensively either. I didn't take your post like that
but I disagree about some of your contentions like some other
americans disagree with both of us on a number of issues. For example,
abortion is not moral according to my teaching like capital punishment
is viewed by the majority of protestants as being justified; it's not
in my precatholic opinion. I like to change things and open people to
new ideas and how can we ever have an open debate otherwise?

On 6/18/10, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Honestly I don't know what I said to elicit that response.   You cover way
> too many subjects in one mail, but I will take a stab and answering at
> least
> some of it.
>
> First, it is true churches and christians disagree, but contention is very
> much against Christian teaching, so people need to proceed carefully when
> trying to judge anyone else..  It is also true that people in other
> religions disagree.  It is the nature of the subject -- it is a very big
> subject, the nature of god etc etc.
>
> Second, you point out various supposed Christian beliefs couched as half
> truths, taking ideas out of context. So please look up a doctrine before
> speaking to it.  Personally I take a practical approach to the doctrine to
> give unconditionally and turn the other cheek -- if a person is always
> given
> everything and starts taking advantage of you, do you continue giving
> freely? or do you do him the service of getting an opportunity to work for
> himself?  The latter approach will help not only you but that person, so
> in
> a sense, you are helping him.
> (I suppose there are cases where it seems not to make sense to just give,
> and sometimes you have to do what seems illogical just to follow Jesus'
> example -- and sometimes if you do you will see things change for the
> better. So please don't take my story above as being a hard and fast
> rule...)
>
> Third, in America there is a separation of church and state, and People
> are
> free to choose their beliefs and observances, as long as they aren't
> hurting
> anyone.  And I don't think that a few references to God in historical or
> public documents and textbooks is hurting anyone.
>
> Finally, your first question, how did I come to be Christian -- my my
> family
> raised me that way, although I have not always attended the same church.
> I
> do not believe that people go to hell if they grow up in another religion
> or
> church and have no exposure to the things I believe.  I can't quote the
> reference but it is somewhere.
> The doctrine that innocent people (young children and uninformed people)
> go
> to hell because they are in the wrong church or religion I think paints
> God
> as a monster, and iI believe that was never the intended  meaning of the
> scriptures.
> Jesus said they need to be born again of the water and the spirit to enter
> into the kingdom of God, but it doesn't say people who die without hearing
> this are damned.  In fact, Peter even said the Gospel is preached to the
> dead.  Now what would be the purpose of that if not to give them a chance?
>
>
> Anyway, you seem to be very frustrated by this subject. Perhaps if you
> want
> to take one issue at a time, if it isn't appropriate for the list, then
> I'd
> be open to private email.
>
> I hope you can settle down a bit. This list should be a pleasant
> experience,
> especially if we are trying to be Christ-like. *smile*
> --le
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
> To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
> faith
> and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 12:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any faith
> members
>
>
> Le and others:
>
>
>    If your parents, friends or asasociates didn't ask you to join
> christianity then how would you know to pick christianity? Likewise, I
> am confused if you don't know of the christian God in the myriad of
> the competition then why should you go to Hell over it? I also
> question the division of interpretation of the Bible with different
> dominations and I understand there are some core principles intact
> just the infighting is ridiculous. Some southern baptist think sadly
> that catholics will go to Hell when catholics to my knowledge and
> experience in the past two months shows me a more opening point of
> view.
>     My thing in general about any religion is that people  pick up
> quotes from it and theologians don't even know the answers. Plus, the
> hypocracy, blasophomies and corruption rampant in christian thought
> and other rligions and people want to know why peopple arne't
> christians or any religion? Th esecular state according to a Pew Forum
> is growing elsewhere around the world evident in Europe and in America
> as well. The dictate against political or social ambigeous details
> like homosexuality, abortions, socialistic health care, feeding the
> hungry (food stamps), military support, and etc. The fact is that I
> see contridictions in the Bible versus all christian thought save for
> universalist like anti-war, universal health care, feeding the hungry,
> clothing the naked and things along those lines. YOu are to give and
> not expect anything in return right? How could socialism is considered
> evil onto itself when charity onto itself isn't sufficent nor has been
> evident with the Elizabethian Poor Law of 1601, almshouses in 19th
> century, prisons, food stamps, social security, military conquests and
> things of that sort.
>      Quite frankly people I've ran across arre justifying everything
> from an arbitirary interpretation over a book. We aren't meant to be
> divided, we are supposed to be united as christians as fellow men and
> women not divided as we are now. In the south, I see almost no hope
> what so ever cause of the divisiveness of homogony.
>
> On 6/17/10, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> You know, I hope I don't offend anyone by a humorous line, but I once saw
>> a
>> plaque with a picture of a cute puppy face on it, and the caption said
>> "blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be
>> disappointed..."
>> That may be  a rude play on the beatitudes, but there is a truth in it
>> that
>> in a weird way can apply to some of life's situations.  What I mean is,
>> if
>> you give someone something not expecting anything in return -- chances
>> are
>> you may not get anything in return, but there is that chance that your
>> good
>> deed will bear fruit.  In either case, you are not disappointed! *smile*
>> I know you are talking about the after life and not about daily life, but
>> if
>> we live this life as if we can't expect anything afterwards unless we do
>> good here, hmm--someone help me -- then if there is nothing, are we
>> disappointed/? Ok so maybe it doesn't apply exactly. It, after all, is
>> not
>>
>> a
>> beatitude, but a play on them.
>>
>> That leads me to say, maybe it would be a good idea to reread the
>> beatitudes -- aren't they in Matthew 5? They are quite uplifting as they
>> are
>> all about blessings.
>> Have a great day, whether or not you expect to! *smile*
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 4:35 AM
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any faith
>> members
>>
>>
>> --
>> Peter
>> Webmaster
>> http://www.darkstruggle.com
>> webmaster at darkstruggle.com
>> alternative e-mail
>> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>>
>> To list::
>>
>>
>>     I'm wondering what the proportions versus born again to born
>> christians are in here on this list? This could consist of any faith
>> and in general to us the blind if possible only. I just find it hard
>> now that I'm blind to believe in all knowing and all loving God that
>> cares about me? I question the sincerity, yet I go to church like
>> others. I wander around in my head whether or not it's all a crock
>> like Marx stated "Religion is opium for the masses" or there is a all
>> knowing-loving God out there for us. Another fundamental in general
>> terms is that there are religions before, during and after the
>> creation of christianity and who is to say which is right or what is
>> wrong? I mean it's all geopolitical and the west's default now is
>> christianity, middle east's Islam, far east being China is buddahist
>> or Hindi or whatever indigenous religions in the world in Africa to
>> Latin America. I also question my faith and pray and return
>> continiously to the same cycle of sin over and over. The apathy of
>> christians is a self-restrain hypocritical or overly judgemental view
>> of a narrow interest privledged lifestyle of upbringing into one
>> unquestionable homogenous faith being christianity. Thankss for any
>> venting on your part on your voyage to faith or faithlessness as well.
>> Another thing is that what if you end up at the end of your life and
>> die to find out either nothing is there or your God wasn't who you
>> thought in your Bible it was going to be like?
>>
>> sincerely,
>> Pete
>>
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>
>
> --
> Peter
> Webmaster
> http://www.darkstruggle.com
> webmaster at darkstruggle.com
> alternative e-mail
> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
Peter
Webmaster
http://www.darkstruggle.com
webmaster at darkstruggle.com
alternative e-mail
sunspot005 at gmail.com