[Faith-talk] Fw: Born again versus born christians or any faith members

[Peter Wolfe]

Finally, I will show you a real report that mormons can in no ways be
innocent. Look t this and tell me then?
    To further destroy your love of the innocent mormons, here is an
article http://www.hsdcfs.utah.gov/factsdv.htm about " In homes where
spousal abuse occurs, children are abused at a rate 1,500 percent
higher than the national average."
note: merely showing you that it's more of a cultural phenemonon cause
it happened in Utah. So,  are all of them ex-communicated then? No way
and you gotta know that Jack.

sincerely,
Peter


On 6/18/10, Peter Wolfe <sunspot005 at gmail.com> wrote:
> No, you are wrong again protestant and I'll prove it to you once and
> for all. Mormons being a protestant faith of christianity have this
> http://johnrussell.newsvine.com/_news/2010/04/16/4165729-insurance-reports-indicate-more-child-sex-abuse-among-protestants-than-catholic-clergy.
> New information cause your protestant friends to the best of my
> searching of Google are more guilty my friend. Neither cases either
> right just shows you media biased might have brainwashed you into
> believing this pseudo hardline by mormons as opposed to the catholic
> approach. Neither like I said is right and that is official insurance
> numbers that you cannot even begin to argue with at all.
>     Socialism appears to be in favor by christians and yet not in
> favor. For example, you say about the God getting out of schools
> right? Well, you look at our dollar bills, Constitution and etc that
> it's not erased. This is more attributed to a unique culture than
> anything else and you can  in many places still silently pray or just
> about do anything else. Nothing wrong with that and that is what is in
> it. Capitalism in it's purest form since the Industrial Revolution has
> destroyed families from their rural existence of the Agricultural
> Revolution to the Industrail Revolution in that process as well to jam
> people into urban areas. These living arrangements destroyed respect
> by elders, less time at home with children and etc to the family core.
> Then, children became less useful around the home and had to get an
> education teaching them against in many cases against the Bible. So,
> you point socialism is an inevedible outcome of capitalism as
> structuralist constructed like one century ago or so in Britain with
> Charles Dickens, H.G Wells, Karl Marx, Fredrich Engels, and other
> british writers on equality.
>     I will tell you another thing that capitalism has done is to
> degrade women to the point of lunacy till they had legislation for
> Civil Rights and other things that inately business didn't want the
> discrimination would continue onward. Likewise the regulation of
> business would have gone without a hitch forever and forever. Then,
> retirement with a consumer driven society the citizens are blamed for
> something for their retirement when the companies want them to spend,
> spend and spendd? You can't have it both ways on that carrot.
>     Whoa, another thing the health care level of people in general has
> rose due to technology, diet, cultivation practices and the Green
> Revolution. So, literacy has spread in a more liberating environment
> called socialism. Maybe a good idea to start from is the definition of
> controling the labor by the workers like Unions that gave us the
> fourty hour work week and other benefits. I could continue onward on
> issues that socialism being adopted in Canada, Britain, Europe, South
> Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zeleand, and other nations prosper at
> times other than the rare Greek incidences. The people are overall
> more educated, healthier, accepting and have a concept called human
> rights. A new concept for our young ever learning nation to that of
> our fellow man that we are in fact our brothers keeper afterall. For
> example, yeah they buy a burger from Mcdonald's but who benefits from
> hiding calroies, dietition information and who gets cheated in the
> end? I can go onward and forever on how socialism is the future not an
> apathetic capitalistic war machine filled with self-interest and
> narrow ambitions like the oil crisis attest to in my defense.
>     I don't think a secular nation like a nonsecular nation is anymore
> or less christian depending on a stage of economic development than
> another. However, stage 5 nations (e.g. Euorpe and Japan) are further
> along typically than us americans. The population shrinks and social
> services rise. If this means economic slow down maybe we are going far
> beyond our intended speed and likewise with China and India. I'm
> telling you this from an international porospect cause I heard
> speeches directly from ambassadors from Germany, Canada, India,
> self-dubbed greek and south american to human rights worker to Iraq.
> So, naturally it follows that I have a wider international view than
> your typical uninternationally exposed american.
>     Dude, about the Peter comment that is what I thought I was telling
> you that there is nothing wrong. We are just speaking in different
> tongues. I'm not going to start on your attitude on your last sentence
> or two. I won't even get into the contridictions of protestants about
> capitalism, strong military and etc that is espoused so readily in
> protestant driven areas in this nation.
>
> On 6/18/10, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hi -- i didn't know Peter posted his mail to the list, so I'll post my
>> private correspondence, which I originally thought was on list, but found
>> it
>> was going only to him. My mailer didn't pick up the list, although it was
>> in
>> the header.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 11:26 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any faith
>> members
>>
>>
>> First, I hear you about the judgemental attitude people take in their
>> various churches, and I think in the end, these people will regret ever
>> having this attitude.  I think this attitude has offended a lot of people
>> throughout the ages. It gives people a false idea of what Christianity is.
>> But people are not perfect.  And that is true in any type of organization.
>>
>> I understand rejecting organized religion because of the failures of some
>> organizations to protect their members.  I also want to say, however, that
>> "Mormons" as a group do not abuse children -- in fact they are very family
>> oriented and any kind of abuse is dealt with severely (as in possible
>> excommunication). Also, protestants as a group do not kill people -- it is
>> a
>> few really bad people that use religion as a cover for their completely
>> evil
>> deeds.  That is one argument against organized religion -- the bad
>> organizations who misuse the scriptures -- but that isn't the fault of the
>> other organizations.
>>
>> Now as for Peter, you say "praying to the dead" -- I don't believe there
>> is
>> any scriptural reference implying that Peter prayed to the dead.  He only
>> said in the book of 1 Peter that the Gospel is preached to them that are
>> dead, that they may live according to men in the flesh but be judged
>> according to God in the spirit -- which sounds like it means that it gives
>> people a chance they may not have had when physically alive.  (See 1Peter
>> 3:18-20 and 1Peter 4:6) -- or were you not talking about St Peter?
>>
>> Finally, the bible does indeed talk about Jesus feeding the hungry and
>> requiring his followers to follow his example.  Does this however apply to
>> a
>> government or only to individuals?  In any event, the socialist approach
>> to
>> government is not so much a religious choice -- to most -- in fact, isn't
>> there a movement to banish the word God from public places and historical
>> documents? Some believe they are living their religion by supporting a
>> socialist government.  Others don't hold that belief. I can think of 2
>> reasons I have heard in support of capitalism: capitalism gives people of
>> all strengths and weaknesses the chance to create organizations that are
>> mutually beneficial: for the CEO's it gives them an opportunity to produce
>> a
>> successful business, and to employees it provides jobs.   and 2: it may be
>> hard on the persons who fall through the cracks or get locked into jobs
>> they
>> don't like, but this situation also provides the more successful persons
>> the
>> opportunity to practice their supposed faith and help people out. You only
>> hear about the scandalous businesses in the news; you don't always hear
>> about the ones that really work.
>> I think that having the government take over is one way to attack the
>> problem cases -- but the government is an organization like any other
>> organization, and people run it, so there are abuses there as well.
>>
>> Anyway, politics and religion are hot topics -- no wonder you are sounding
>> belligerent.
>> Write back if you want.
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
>> To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 7:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any faith
>> members
>>
>>
>> You got me wrong my friend and you hold no mastery over the Bible. YOu
>> say that "I take things out of context?" I don't know the doctorine of
>> christianity? How do you even know what I've read or not read on the
>> subject? You will be surprised my friend of what I know and don't know
>> quite frankly. It's this arrogance that disgust me about religion in
>> general. No, I didn't take context out of the gospels like feeding the
>> hungry, clothing the naked and taking care of the sick. This goes for
>> sinner and nonsinner alike being universal health care, food stamps
>> and housing the poor in section 8 housing. Moreover, the quote about
>> the information about not giving back isn't yet found in the Bible
>> that I read other than you must work for your daily bread and labor
>> fruits will bear fruition. I understand  this information and many
>> people with no jobs and no wealth to creat money are left dependent on
>> the economy with unemployment checks.
>>     I will also point out that I don't have an attitude either. Merely
>> in my estimation that I'm venting frustration to nonbelievers and
>> believers alike about the hard line approach. People want to know why
>> people are leaving organized religions? The answer is quite frankly
>> the judgemental noncomprimising attitude of organized christians.
>> There is also something called gluttony, greed, lust and things of
>> that sort that capitalism must feed on to exist at all. I can point
>> out other things in historical, public and religious context just as
>> equally my friend as far as GINI Index, human rights violations, and
>> etc that aren't christian like even to the slightest. So, the
>> separation of church and state like other doctorines in the U.S.A are
>> total bologna in my opinon. So, Peter praying  to the dead is
>> considered witchcraft by southern christians and also they think it's
>> a form of idiotry. Quotes mean nothing cause people dont' look at
>> context and catholics above others believe in Saints, Confessional,
>> holy water, purgatory and etc that protestants sadly think out of
>> ignorance that they will go to Hell about. Your opinion bar none is
>> the minority in this discussion and I'm saying this completely
>> objectively in the U.S.A. Look at the child molestation cases as if it
>> doesnt' happen elsewhere like mormons or the religious fanatical
>> protestants commiting terrorism and murders in the name of the Lord
>> all of the time.
>>     I am fine and the list is purpose is to talk about Faith? We can't
>> shove this stuff under the rug cause that is what some people claim
>> throughout history with religions leading to Salem Witch Trials to
>> child molestation confrontations with any church. Corruption and
>> understand with a lending of the ear and heart can resolve these
>> issues by us would be christians to the normal christian. Thanks for
>> being open and honest about your opinions on the issues and don't take
>> what I've said offensively either. I didn't take your post like that
>> but I disagree about some of your contentions like some other
>> americans disagree with both of us on a number of issues. For example,
>> abortion is not moral according to my teaching like capital punishment
>> is viewed by the majority of protestants as being justified; it's not
>> in my precatholic opinion. I like to change things and open people to
>> new ideas and how can we ever have an open debate otherwise?
>>
>> On 6/18/10, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Honestly I don't know what I said to elicit that response.   You cover
>>> way
>>> too many subjects in one mail, but I will take a stab and answering at
>>> least
>>> some of it.
>>>
>>> First, it is true churches and christians disagree, but contention is
>>> very
>>> much against Christian teaching, so people need to proceed carefully when
>>> trying to judge anyone else..  It is also true that people in other
>>> religions disagree.  It is the nature of the subject -- it is a very big
>>> subject, the nature of god etc etc.
>>>
>>> Second, you point out various supposed Christian beliefs couched as half
>>> truths, taking ideas out of context. So please look up a doctrine before
>>> speaking to it.  Personally I take a practical approach to the doctrine
>>> to
>>> give unconditionally and turn the other cheek -- if a person is always
>>> given
>>> everything and starts taking advantage of you, do you continue giving
>>> freely? or do you do him the service of getting an opportunity to work
>>> for
>>> himself?  The latter approach will help not only you but that person, so
>>> in
>>> a sense, you are helping him.
>>> (I suppose there are cases where it seems not to make sense to just give,
>>> and sometimes you have to do what seems illogical just to follow Jesus'
>>> example -- and sometimes if you do you will see things change for the
>>> better. So please don't take my story above as being a hard and fast
>>> rule...)
>>>
>>> Third, in America there is a separation of church and state, and People
>>> are
>>> free to choose their beliefs and observances, as long as they aren't
>>> hurting
>>> anyone.  And I don't think that a few references to God in historical or
>>> public documents and textbooks is hurting anyone.
>>>
>>> Finally, your first question, how did I come to be Christian -- my my
>>> family
>>> raised me that way, although I have not always attended the same church.
>>> I
>>> do not believe that people go to hell if they grow up in another religion
>>> or
>>> church and have no exposure to the things I believe.  I can't quote the
>>> reference but it is somewhere.
>>> The doctrine that innocent people (young children and uninformed people)
>>> go
>>> to hell because they are in the wrong church or religion I think paints
>>> God
>>> as a monster, and iI believe that was never the intended  meaning of the
>>> scriptures.
>>> Jesus said they need to be born again of the water and the spirit to
>>> enter
>>> into the kingdom of God, but it doesn't say people who die without
>>> hearing
>>> this are damned.  In fact, Peter even said the Gospel is preached to the
>>> dead.  Now what would be the purpose of that if not to give them a
>>> chance?
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyway, you seem to be very frustrated by this subject. Perhaps if you
>>> want
>>> to take one issue at a time, if it isn't appropriate for the list, then
>>> I'd
>>> be open to private email.
>>>
>>> I hope you can settle down a bit. This list should be a pleasant
>>> experience,
>>> especially if we are trying to be Christ-like. *smile*
>>> --le
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>>> faith
>>> and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 12:39 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any faith
>>> members
>>>
>>>
>>> Le and others:
>>>
>>>
>>>    If your parents, friends or asasociates didn't ask you to join
>>> christianity then how would you know to pick christianity? Likewise, I
>>> am confused if you don't know of the christian God in the myriad of
>>> the competition then why should you go to Hell over it? I also
>>> question the division of interpretation of the Bible with different
>>> dominations and I understand there are some core principles intact
>>> just the infighting is ridiculous. Some southern baptist think sadly
>>> that catholics will go to Hell when catholics to my knowledge and
>>> experience in the past two months shows me a more opening point of
>>> view.
>>>     My thing in general about any religion is that people  pick up
>>> quotes from it and theologians don't even know the answers. Plus, the
>>> hypocracy, blasophomies and corruption rampant in christian thought
>>> and other rligions and people want to know why peopple arne't
>>> christians or any religion? Th esecular state according to a Pew Forum
>>> is growing elsewhere around the world evident in Europe and in America
>>> as well. The dictate against political or social ambigeous details
>>> like homosexuality, abortions, socialistic health care, feeding the
>>> hungry (food stamps), military support, and etc. The fact is that I
>>> see contridictions in the Bible versus all christian thought save for
>>> universalist like anti-war, universal health care, feeding the hungry,
>>> clothing the naked and things along those lines. YOu are to give and
>>> not expect anything in return right? How could socialism is considered
>>> evil onto itself when charity onto itself isn't sufficent nor has been
>>> evident with the Elizabethian Poor Law of 1601, almshouses in 19th
>>> century, prisons, food stamps, social security, military conquests and
>>> things of that sort.
>>>      Quite frankly people I've ran across arre justifying everything
>>> from an arbitirary interpretation over a book. We aren't meant to be
>>> divided, we are supposed to be united as christians as fellow men and
>>> women not divided as we are now. In the south, I see almost no hope
>>> what so ever cause of the divisiveness of homogony.
>>>
>>> On 6/17/10, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> You know, I hope I don't offend anyone by a humorous line, but I once
>>>> saw
>>>> a
>>>> plaque with a picture of a cute puppy face on it, and the caption said
>>>> "blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be
>>>> disappointed..."
>>>> That may be  a rude play on the beatitudes, but there is a truth in it
>>>> that
>>>> in a weird way can apply to some of life's situations.  What I mean is,
>>>> if
>>>> you give someone something not expecting anything in return -- chances
>>>> are
>>>> you may not get anything in return, but there is that chance that your
>>>> good
>>>> deed will bear fruit.  In either case, you are not disappointed! *smile*
>>>> I know you are talking about the after life and not about daily life,
>>>> but
>>>> if
>>>> we live this life as if we can't expect anything afterwards unless we do
>>>> good here, hmm--someone help me -- then if there is nothing, are we
>>>> disappointed/? Ok so maybe it doesn't apply exactly. It, after all, is
>>>> not
>>>>
>>>> a
>>>> beatitude, but a play on them.
>>>>
>>>> That leads me to say, maybe it would be a good idea to reread the
>>>> beatitudes -- aren't they in Matthew 5? They are quite uplifting as they
>>>> are
>>>> all about blessings.
>>>> Have a great day, whether or not you expect to! *smile*
>>>> --le
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 4:35 AM
>>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any faith
>>>> members
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Peter
>>>> Webmaster
>>>> http://www.darkstruggle.com
>>>> webmaster at darkstruggle.com
>>>> alternative e-mail
>>>> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> To list::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     I'm wondering what the proportions versus born again to born
>>>> christians are in here on this list? This could consist of any faith
>>>> and in general to us the blind if possible only. I just find it hard
>>>> now that I'm blind to believe in all knowing and all loving God that
>>>> cares about me? I question the sincerity, yet I go to church like
>>>> others. I wander around in my head whether or not it's all a crock
>>>> like Marx stated "Religion is opium for the masses" or there is a all
>>>> knowing-loving God out there for us. Another fundamental in general
>>>> terms is that there are religions before, during and after the
>>>> creation of christianity and who is to say which is right or what is
>>>> wrong? I mean it's all geopolitical and the west's default now is
>>>> christianity, middle east's Islam, far east being China is buddahist
>>>> or Hindi or whatever indigenous religions in the world in Africa to
>>>> Latin America. I also question my faith and pray and return
>>>> continiously to the same cycle of sin over and over. The apathy of
>>>> christians is a self-restrain hypocritical or overly judgemental view
>>>> of a narrow interest privledged lifestyle of upbringing into one
>>>> unquestionable homogenous faith being christianity. Thankss for any
>>>> venting on your part on your voyage to faith or faithlessness as well.
>>>> Another thing is that what if you end up at the end of your life and
>>>> die to find out either nothing is there or your God wasn't who you
>>>> thought in your Bible it was going to be like?
>>>>
>>>> sincerely,
>>>> Pete
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Peter
>>> Webmaster
>>> http://www.darkstruggle.com
>>> webmaster at darkstruggle.com
>>> alternative e-mail
>>> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Peter
>> Webmaster
>> http://www.darkstruggle.com
>> webmaster at darkstruggle.com
>> alternative e-mail
>> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Peter
> Webmaster
> http://www.darkstruggle.com
> webmaster at darkstruggle.com
> alternative e-mail
> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>
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-- 
Peter
Webmaster
http://www.darkstruggle.com
webmaster at darkstruggle.com
alternative e-mail
sunspot005 at gmail.com