[Faith-talk] Fw: Born again versus born christians or any faith members

[Peter Wolfe]

Greg,


    I was merely point oug the gulf between christians in name only
and christians in life fellowship. If I'm to be a christian myself, I
cannot in good faith act like what other supposed christians act like.
The evidense is abudantly clear that I can prove or disprove either
side of our discussion in politics. The thing is that the right holds
some sick dominion over politics especially social weflare that many
see as being unchristian. In fact, in the eighties of the height of
conservativism in this natiom the mental hospitals had people kicked
out. Another example of fiscal insainity and putting values on people
on what they contribute is nothing that anybody will want or should
deserve. Mere subsidization of ones effort coupled with evidense of
good behavior deserves love and compassion not greed and apathy.
     Uh, I was slinging mud because people in this e-mail list have
put down catholicism and mainstream media that the illiterate actually
believe half of the rumors about us that is why I want to equal the
balance. Hardly ever on cnn.com, foxnews.com or other organizations
point out as much about teachers, Boys and Goys Scotts of America and
other protestant christians as it were. Like I said neither of them
make it right just levels the playing field that is all. Yes, the
catholic church doesn't condone the behavior but lots of people think
all parishes have some hidden cult of abusing children. Anyways,
thanks for responding so fervantly to my post and watch out for
religious people in general like Malthus the supposed puritan of his
lot. I mean I'm more worried honestly  about religious people than I
am about politicians because politicians don't lecture about your
everlasting soul.

On 6/18/10, Greg Aikens <gpaikens at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> I got lost on this thread I think. Was this a political discussion or
> a discussion of biblical truth or falsehood? Lori pointed out that
> Christians are imperfect people. Many times they contribute to
> injustice just as much as any other person. Everyone is in constant
> need of repentence, conviction of sin and should be willing to
> continue the journey of becoming like Christ. Most systems and people
> get it wrong more often than we want to admit.
>
> I wouldn't waste any more time trying to decide whether the Bible
> supports capitalism or socialism. You can build biblical arguments for
> both. Max Weber, a famous economist from the 1800's, who was not a
> Christian, pointed out that the protestant reformation in England,
> along with the accompanying Protestant work ethic paved the way for
> the rise of capitalism in the west. The good stewardship and
> temperance people learned from Christianity meant they kept more of
> their money and so had the capital necessary for doing business.
> Capitalism divorced from morrality though degenerates into unbridled
> greed and exploitation. We have seen this happen for quite some time
> now. Socialism without an ethical mooring is no better though. It can
> base the value of an individual on his or her ability to contribute to
> society, which is extremely anti biblical. In the end, every human
> made system can and will be exploited for evil.
>
> Also, I'm nervous to even touch the topic you brought up about the
> mormons, but I would ask how those articles prove your point? Just
> because it happens, does not mean those churches approve of it. Just
> like the presence of abuse in the catholic church doesn't mean they
> approve of it. It seems like you're just throwing mud
>
> -Greg
>
> On 6/18/10, Peter Wolfe <sunspot005 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Finally, I will show you a real report that mormons can in no ways be
>> innocent. Look t this and tell me then?
>>     To further destroy your love of the innocent mormons, here is an
>> article http://www.hsdcfs.utah.gov/factsdv.htm about " In homes where
>> spousal abuse occurs, children are abused at a rate 1,500 percent
>> higher than the national average."
>> note: merely showing you that it's more of a cultural phenemonon cause
>> it happened in Utah. So,  are all of them ex-communicated then? No way
>> and you gotta know that Jack.
>>
>> sincerely,
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> On 6/18/10, Peter Wolfe <sunspot005 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> No, you are wrong again protestant and I'll prove it to you once and
>>> for all. Mormons being a protestant faith of christianity have this
>>> http://johnrussell.newsvine.com/_news/2010/04/16/4165729-insurance-reports-indicate-more-child-sex-abuse-among-protestants-than-catholic-clergy.
>>> New information cause your protestant friends to the best of my
>>> searching of Google are more guilty my friend. Neither cases either
>>> right just shows you media biased might have brainwashed you into
>>> believing this pseudo hardline by mormons as opposed to the catholic
>>> approach. Neither like I said is right and that is official insurance
>>> numbers that you cannot even begin to argue with at all.
>>>     Socialism appears to be in favor by christians and yet not in
>>> favor. For example, you say about the God getting out of schools
>>> right? Well, you look at our dollar bills, Constitution and etc that
>>> it's not erased. This is more attributed to a unique culture than
>>> anything else and you can  in many places still silently pray or just
>>> about do anything else. Nothing wrong with that and that is what is in
>>> it. Capitalism in it's purest form since the Industrial Revolution has
>>> destroyed families from their rural existence of the Agricultural
>>> Revolution to the Industrail Revolution in that process as well to jam
>>> people into urban areas. These living arrangements destroyed respect
>>> by elders, less time at home with children and etc to the family core.
>>> Then, children became less useful around the home and had to get an
>>> education teaching them against in many cases against the Bible. So,
>>> you point socialism is an inevedible outcome of capitalism as
>>> structuralist constructed like one century ago or so in Britain with
>>> Charles Dickens, H.G Wells, Karl Marx, Fredrich Engels, and other
>>> british writers on equality.
>>>     I will tell you another thing that capitalism has done is to
>>> degrade women to the point of lunacy till they had legislation for
>>> Civil Rights and other things that inately business didn't want the
>>> discrimination would continue onward. Likewise the regulation of
>>> business would have gone without a hitch forever and forever. Then,
>>> retirement with a consumer driven society the citizens are blamed for
>>> something for their retirement when the companies want them to spend,
>>> spend and spendd? You can't have it both ways on that carrot.
>>>     Whoa, another thing the health care level of people in general has
>>> rose due to technology, diet, cultivation practices and the Green
>>> Revolution. So, literacy has spread in a more liberating environment
>>> called socialism. Maybe a good idea to start from is the definition of
>>> controling the labor by the workers like Unions that gave us the
>>> fourty hour work week and other benefits. I could continue onward on
>>> issues that socialism being adopted in Canada, Britain, Europe, South
>>> Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zeleand, and other nations prosper at
>>> times other than the rare Greek incidences. The people are overall
>>> more educated, healthier, accepting and have a concept called human
>>> rights. A new concept for our young ever learning nation to that of
>>> our fellow man that we are in fact our brothers keeper afterall. For
>>> example, yeah they buy a burger from Mcdonald's but who benefits from
>>> hiding calroies, dietition information and who gets cheated in the
>>> end? I can go onward and forever on how socialism is the future not an
>>> apathetic capitalistic war machine filled with self-interest and
>>> narrow ambitions like the oil crisis attest to in my defense.
>>>     I don't think a secular nation like a nonsecular nation is anymore
>>> or less christian depending on a stage of economic development than
>>> another. However, stage 5 nations (e.g. Euorpe and Japan) are further
>>> along typically than us americans. The population shrinks and social
>>> services rise. If this means economic slow down maybe we are going far
>>> beyond our intended speed and likewise with China and India. I'm
>>> telling you this from an international porospect cause I heard
>>> speeches directly from ambassadors from Germany, Canada, India,
>>> self-dubbed greek and south american to human rights worker to Iraq.
>>> So, naturally it follows that I have a wider international view than
>>> your typical uninternationally exposed american.
>>>     Dude, about the Peter comment that is what I thought I was telling
>>> you that there is nothing wrong. We are just speaking in different
>>> tongues. I'm not going to start on your attitude on your last sentence
>>> or two. I won't even get into the contridictions of protestants about
>>> capitalism, strong military and etc that is espoused so readily in
>>> protestant driven areas in this nation.
>>>
>>> On 6/18/10, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi -- i didn't know Peter posted his mail to the list, so I'll post my
>>>> private correspondence, which I originally thought was on list, but
>>>> found
>>>> it
>>>> was going only to him. My mailer didn't pick up the list, although it
>>>> was
>>>> in
>>>> the header.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 11:26 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any faith
>>>> members
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> First, I hear you about the judgemental attitude people take in their
>>>> various churches, and I think in the end, these people will regret ever
>>>> having this attitude.  I think this attitude has offended a lot of
>>>> people
>>>> throughout the ages. It gives people a false idea of what Christianity
>>>> is.
>>>> But people are not perfect.  And that is true in any type of
>>>> organization.
>>>>
>>>> I understand rejecting organized religion because of the failures of
>>>> some
>>>> organizations to protect their members.  I also want to say, however,
>>>> that
>>>> "Mormons" as a group do not abuse children -- in fact they are very
>>>> family
>>>> oriented and any kind of abuse is dealt with severely (as in possible
>>>> excommunication). Also, protestants as a group do not kill people -- it
>>>> is
>>>> a
>>>> few really bad people that use religion as a cover for their completely
>>>> evil
>>>> deeds.  That is one argument against organized religion -- the bad
>>>> organizations who misuse the scriptures -- but that isn't the fault of
>>>> the
>>>> other organizations.
>>>>
>>>> Now as for Peter, you say "praying to the dead" -- I don't believe there
>>>> is
>>>> any scriptural reference implying that Peter prayed to the dead.  He
>>>> only
>>>> said in the book of 1 Peter that the Gospel is preached to them that are
>>>> dead, that they may live according to men in the flesh but be judged
>>>> according to God in the spirit -- which sounds like it means that it
>>>> gives
>>>> people a chance they may not have had when physically alive.  (See
>>>> 1Peter
>>>> 3:18-20 and 1Peter 4:6) -- or were you not talking about St Peter?
>>>>
>>>> Finally, the bible does indeed talk about Jesus feeding the hungry and
>>>> requiring his followers to follow his example.  Does this however apply
>>>> to
>>>> a
>>>> government or only to individuals?  In any event, the socialist approach
>>>> to
>>>> government is not so much a religious choice -- to most -- in fact,
>>>> isn't
>>>> there a movement to banish the word God from public places and
>>>> historical
>>>> documents? Some believe they are living their religion by supporting a
>>>> socialist government.  Others don't hold that belief. I can think of 2
>>>> reasons I have heard in support of capitalism: capitalism gives people
>>>> of
>>>> all strengths and weaknesses the chance to create organizations that are
>>>> mutually beneficial: for the CEO's it gives them an opportunity to
>>>> produce
>>>> a
>>>> successful business, and to employees it provides jobs.   and 2: it may
>>>> be
>>>> hard on the persons who fall through the cracks or get locked into jobs
>>>> they
>>>> don't like, but this situation also provides the more successful persons
>>>> the
>>>> opportunity to practice their supposed faith and help people out. You
>>>> only
>>>> hear about the scandalous businesses in the news; you don't always hear
>>>> about the ones that really work.
>>>> I think that having the government take over is one way to attack the
>>>> problem cases -- but the government is an organization like any other
>>>> organization, and people run it, so there are abuses there as well.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, politics and religion are hot topics -- no wonder you are
>>>> sounding
>>>> belligerent.
>>>> Write back if you want.
>>>> --le
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 7:50 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any faith
>>>> members
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You got me wrong my friend and you hold no mastery over the Bible. YOu
>>>> say that "I take things out of context?" I don't know the doctorine of
>>>> christianity? How do you even know what I've read or not read on the
>>>> subject? You will be surprised my friend of what I know and don't know
>>>> quite frankly. It's this arrogance that disgust me about religion in
>>>> general. No, I didn't take context out of the gospels like feeding the
>>>> hungry, clothing the naked and taking care of the sick. This goes for
>>>> sinner and nonsinner alike being universal health care, food stamps
>>>> and housing the poor in section 8 housing. Moreover, the quote about
>>>> the information about not giving back isn't yet found in the Bible
>>>> that I read other than you must work for your daily bread and labor
>>>> fruits will bear fruition. I understand  this information and many
>>>> people with no jobs and no wealth to creat money are left dependent on
>>>> the economy with unemployment checks.
>>>>     I will also point out that I don't have an attitude either. Merely
>>>> in my estimation that I'm venting frustration to nonbelievers and
>>>> believers alike about the hard line approach. People want to know why
>>>> people are leaving organized religions? The answer is quite frankly
>>>> the judgemental noncomprimising attitude of organized christians.
>>>> There is also something called gluttony, greed, lust and things of
>>>> that sort that capitalism must feed on to exist at all. I can point
>>>> out other things in historical, public and religious context just as
>>>> equally my friend as far as GINI Index, human rights violations, and
>>>> etc that aren't christian like even to the slightest. So, the
>>>> separation of church and state like other doctorines in the U.S.A are
>>>> total bologna in my opinon. So, Peter praying  to the dead is
>>>> considered witchcraft by southern christians and also they think it's
>>>> a form of idiotry. Quotes mean nothing cause people dont' look at
>>>> context and catholics above others believe in Saints, Confessional,
>>>> holy water, purgatory and etc that protestants sadly think out of
>>>> ignorance that they will go to Hell about. Your opinion bar none is
>>>> the minority in this discussion and I'm saying this completely
>>>> objectively in the U.S.A. Look at the child molestation cases as if it
>>>> doesnt' happen elsewhere like mormons or the religious fanatical
>>>> protestants commiting terrorism and murders in the name of the Lord
>>>> all of the time.
>>>>     I am fine and the list is purpose is to talk about Faith? We can't
>>>> shove this stuff under the rug cause that is what some people claim
>>>> throughout history with religions leading to Salem Witch Trials to
>>>> child molestation confrontations with any church. Corruption and
>>>> understand with a lending of the ear and heart can resolve these
>>>> issues by us would be christians to the normal christian. Thanks for
>>>> being open and honest about your opinions on the issues and don't take
>>>> what I've said offensively either. I didn't take your post like that
>>>> but I disagree about some of your contentions like some other
>>>> americans disagree with both of us on a number of issues. For example,
>>>> abortion is not moral according to my teaching like capital punishment
>>>> is viewed by the majority of protestants as being justified; it's not
>>>> in my precatholic opinion. I like to change things and open people to
>>>> new ideas and how can we ever have an open debate otherwise?
>>>>
>>>> On 6/18/10, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Honestly I don't know what I said to elicit that response.   You cover
>>>>> way
>>>>> too many subjects in one mail, but I will take a stab and answering at
>>>>> least
>>>>> some of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, it is true churches and christians disagree, but contention is
>>>>> very
>>>>> much against Christian teaching, so people need to proceed carefully
>>>>> when
>>>>> trying to judge anyone else..  It is also true that people in other
>>>>> religions disagree.  It is the nature of the subject -- it is a very
>>>>> big
>>>>> subject, the nature of god etc etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Second, you point out various supposed Christian beliefs couched as
>>>>> half
>>>>> truths, taking ideas out of context. So please look up a doctrine
>>>>> before
>>>>> speaking to it.  Personally I take a practical approach to the doctrine
>>>>> to
>>>>> give unconditionally and turn the other cheek -- if a person is always
>>>>> given
>>>>> everything and starts taking advantage of you, do you continue giving
>>>>> freely? or do you do him the service of getting an opportunity to work
>>>>> for
>>>>> himself?  The latter approach will help not only you but that person,
>>>>> so
>>>>> in
>>>>> a sense, you are helping him.
>>>>> (I suppose there are cases where it seems not to make sense to just
>>>>> give,
>>>>> and sometimes you have to do what seems illogical just to follow Jesus'
>>>>> example -- and sometimes if you do you will see things change for the
>>>>> better. So please don't take my story above as being a hard and fast
>>>>> rule...)
>>>>>
>>>>> Third, in America there is a separation of church and state, and People
>>>>> are
>>>>> free to choose their beliefs and observances, as long as they aren't
>>>>> hurting
>>>>> anyone.  And I don't think that a few references to God in historical
>>>>> or
>>>>> public documents and textbooks is hurting anyone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, your first question, how did I come to be Christian -- my my
>>>>> family
>>>>> raised me that way, although I have not always attended the same
>>>>> church.
>>>>> I
>>>>> do not believe that people go to hell if they grow up in another
>>>>> religion
>>>>> or
>>>>> church and have no exposure to the things I believe.  I can't quote the
>>>>> reference but it is somewhere.
>>>>> The doctrine that innocent people (young children and uninformed
>>>>> people)
>>>>> go
>>>>> to hell because they are in the wrong church or religion I think paints
>>>>> God
>>>>> as a monster, and iI believe that was never the intended  meaning of
>>>>> the
>>>>> scriptures.
>>>>> Jesus said they need to be born again of the water and the spirit to
>>>>> enter
>>>>> into the kingdom of God, but it doesn't say people who die without
>>>>> hearing
>>>>> this are damned.  In fact, Peter even said the Gospel is preached to
>>>>> the
>>>>> dead.  Now what would be the purpose of that if not to give them a
>>>>> chance?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, you seem to be very frustrated by this subject. Perhaps if you
>>>>> want
>>>>> to take one issue at a time, if it isn't appropriate for the list, then
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> be open to private email.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope you can settle down a bit. This list should be a pleasant
>>>>> experience,
>>>>> especially if we are trying to be Christ-like. *smile*
>>>>> --le
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>>>>> faith
>>>>> and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 12:39 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any
>>>>> faith
>>>>> members
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Le and others:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    If your parents, friends or asasociates didn't ask you to join
>>>>> christianity then how would you know to pick christianity? Likewise, I
>>>>> am confused if you don't know of the christian God in the myriad of
>>>>> the competition then why should you go to Hell over it? I also
>>>>> question the division of interpretation of the Bible with different
>>>>> dominations and I understand there are some core principles intact
>>>>> just the infighting is ridiculous. Some southern baptist think sadly
>>>>> that catholics will go to Hell when catholics to my knowledge and
>>>>> experience in the past two months shows me a more opening point of
>>>>> view.
>>>>>     My thing in general about any religion is that people  pick up
>>>>> quotes from it and theologians don't even know the answers. Plus, the
>>>>> hypocracy, blasophomies and corruption rampant in christian thought
>>>>> and other rligions and people want to know why peopple arne't
>>>>> christians or any religion? Th esecular state according to a Pew Forum
>>>>> is growing elsewhere around the world evident in Europe and in America
>>>>> as well. The dictate against political or social ambigeous details
>>>>> like homosexuality, abortions, socialistic health care, feeding the
>>>>> hungry (food stamps), military support, and etc. The fact is that I
>>>>> see contridictions in the Bible versus all christian thought save for
>>>>> universalist like anti-war, universal health care, feeding the hungry,
>>>>> clothing the naked and things along those lines. YOu are to give and
>>>>> not expect anything in return right? How could socialism is considered
>>>>> evil onto itself when charity onto itself isn't sufficent nor has been
>>>>> evident with the Elizabethian Poor Law of 1601, almshouses in 19th
>>>>> century, prisons, food stamps, social security, military conquests and
>>>>> things of that sort.
>>>>>      Quite frankly people I've ran across arre justifying everything
>>>>> from an arbitirary interpretation over a book. We aren't meant to be
>>>>> divided, we are supposed to be united as christians as fellow men and
>>>>> women not divided as we are now. In the south, I see almost no hope
>>>>> what so ever cause of the divisiveness of homogony.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/17/10, qubit <lauraeaves at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> You know, I hope I don't offend anyone by a humorous line, but I once
>>>>>> saw
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> plaque with a picture of a cute puppy face on it, and the caption said
>>>>>> "blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be
>>>>>> disappointed..."
>>>>>> That may be  a rude play on the beatitudes, but there is a truth in it
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> in a weird way can apply to some of life's situations.  What I mean
>>>>>> is,
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> you give someone something not expecting anything in return -- chances
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> you may not get anything in return, but there is that chance that your
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> deed will bear fruit.  In either case, you are not disappointed!
>>>>>> *smile*
>>>>>> I know you are talking about the after life and not about daily life,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> we live this life as if we can't expect anything afterwards unless we
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> good here, hmm--someone help me -- then if there is nothing, are we
>>>>>> disappointed/? Ok so maybe it doesn't apply exactly. It, after all, is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> beatitude, but a play on them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That leads me to say, maybe it would be a good idea to reread the
>>>>>> beatitudes -- aren't they in Matthew 5? They are quite uplifting as
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> all about blessings.
>>>>>> Have a great day, whether or not you expect to! *smile*
>>>>>> --le
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Peter Wolfe" <sunspot005 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 4:35 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] Born again versus born christians or any faith
>>>>>> members
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>> Webmaster
>>>>>> http://www.darkstruggle.com
>>>>>> webmaster at darkstruggle.com
>>>>>> alternative e-mail
>>>>>> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To list::
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     I'm wondering what the proportions versus born again to born
>>>>>> christians are in here on this list? This could consist of any faith
>>>>>> and in general to us the blind if possible only. I just find it hard
>>>>>> now that I'm blind to believe in all knowing and all loving God that
>>>>>> cares about me? I question the sincerity, yet I go to church like
>>>>>> others. I wander around in my head whether or not it's all a crock
>>>>>> like Marx stated "Religion is opium for the masses" or there is a all
>>>>>> knowing-loving God out there for us. Another fundamental in general
>>>>>> terms is that there are religions before, during and after the
>>>>>> creation of christianity and who is to say which is right or what is
>>>>>> wrong? I mean it's all geopolitical and the west's default now is
>>>>>> christianity, middle east's Islam, far east being China is buddahist
>>>>>> or Hindi or whatever indigenous religions in the world in Africa to
>>>>>> Latin America. I also question my faith and pray and return
>>>>>> continiously to the same cycle of sin over and over. The apathy of
>>>>>> christians is a self-restrain hypocritical or overly judgemental view
>>>>>> of a narrow interest privledged lifestyle of upbringing into one
>>>>>> unquestionable homogenous faith being christianity. Thankss for any
>>>>>> venting on your part on your voyage to faith or faithlessness as well.
>>>>>> Another thing is that what if you end up at the end of your life and
>>>>>> die to find out either nothing is there or your God wasn't who you
>>>>>> thought in your Bible it was going to be like?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>> Pete
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Peter
>>>>> Webmaster
>>>>> http://www.darkstruggle.com
>>>>> webmaster at darkstruggle.com
>>>>> alternative e-mail
>>>>> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Peter
>>>> Webmaster
>>>> http://www.darkstruggle.com
>>>> webmaster at darkstruggle.com
>>>> alternative e-mail
>>>> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Peter
>>> Webmaster
>>> http://www.darkstruggle.com
>>> webmaster at darkstruggle.com
>>> alternative e-mail
>>> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Peter
>> Webmaster
>> http://www.darkstruggle.com
>> webmaster at darkstruggle.com
>> alternative e-mail
>> sunspot005 at gmail.com
>>
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>
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-- 
Peter
Webmaster
http://www.darkstruggle.com
webmaster at darkstruggle.com
alternative e-mail
sunspot005 at gmail.com