[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Thu Apr 28 17:48:49 UTC 2011

Dear list,
  I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand I'm
not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone here,
and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with that
disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was made
earlier on this thread.
	John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils down
to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are those
who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then I
suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition, you're
excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider Joshua
Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a Christian?
 His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the world
for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
	So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't exclusively
Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.  Anyone
who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon him
as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as Mormons
Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He isn't
just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the godhead,
our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice
in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.  In my
book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the
numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics and
Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
  Warmest regards,
Kirt

On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
> Kirt,
>
> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really embarrassed
> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is no need
> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply would
> be good for the whole list.
>
> Blessed Easter,
> John
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but it
>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>
>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Kirt:
>> > I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>> > I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2 other
>> > major
>> > religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently studying
>> > the
>> > reformation in school.
>> >
>> > According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that time
>> > that
>> > all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the "common
>> > people" to read,
>> > while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first to
>> > start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the bible
>> > should
>> > be read and understood by each and every believer.
>> >
>> > Am I correct?
>> >
>> > Jorge
>> >
>> >
>> > On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>> >
>> >> John,
>> >>  I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your answers
>> >> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm understanding right,
>> >> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman
>> >> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already given.  In
>> >> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation of
>> >> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement between
>> >> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the Bible.
>> >> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>> >> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way to
>> >> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more open to
>> >> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge generalization,
>> >> but would you say I'm right there?
>> >>  Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.  You
>> >> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's vissions were
>> >> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you think he
>> >> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking
>> >> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I want your
>> >> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>> >>  And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say escential.
>> >> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally I'm
>> >> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I believe with
>> >> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God throughout
>> >> the religious world.
>> >>  I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the idea
>> >> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on it?
>> >>  God bless,
>> >> Kirt
>> >>
>> >> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>> >>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious dialog. In
>> >>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of evangelization. If
>> >>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see that it's
>> >>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>> >>> evangelization
>> >>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>> >>>
>> >>> John
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>> >>>> Dear list,
>> >>>>  I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and
>> >>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few worthwhile
>> >>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely don't mean
>> >>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of this
>> >>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this thread
>> >>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very interested
>> >>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths.  If
>> >>>> that's
>> >>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
>> >>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or anything.
>> >>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>> >>>>  God bless,
>> >>>> Kirt
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>> >>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>> >>> http://www.godtouches.org
>> >>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>> >>> Peace, Love, Service
>> >>>
>> >>>
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>> >>
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>
> --
> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
> http://www.godtouches.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> Peace, Love, Service
>
>
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