[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Alan Wheeler awheeler65 at windstream.net
Thu Apr 28 18:54:13 UTC 2011 

You're correct. There's no scripture to support that view at all.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On Behalf Of Jeanette
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:50 PM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

as i understand this view is not supported by any scripture, we had this
discussion in our small group meeting last week, no one could come up with 
any scripture to support it.   not trying to argue, but there is no evidence

in the Holy bible that you have the opportunity to receive Christ after
death. Jeanette
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list


> Jorge,
>  My church teaches that all humans are children of God.  Christians, 
> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists, 
> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit child of 
> god.
>  Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous 
> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea 
> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the name) 
> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to 
> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a central 
> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the next, 
> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.  Were 
> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because, 
> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who literally 
> never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would 
> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in 
> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith 
> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I 
> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims 
> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who 
> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they will 
> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to the 
> best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just 
> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies 
> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately condemned 
> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>  Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>  Best,
> Kirt
>
> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello Kirt:
>> I agree with you completely.
>>
>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text, you will see 
>> that Christians started out as one group.
>> Then for various reasons,
>> divided,
>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>> But,
>> that brings me to my point.
>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for "children 
>> of God?"
>>
>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus Christ.
>>
>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>  Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their views 
>> on Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>
>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>
>> Just food for thought.
>>
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>
>>> Dear list,
>>>  I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand 
>>> I'm not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone 
>>> here, and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, 
>>> with that disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that 
>>> was made earlier on this thread.
>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify 
>>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I 
>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils 
>>> down to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are 
>>> those who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, 
>>> then I suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that 
>>> definition, you're excluding some of the most Christian people among 
>>> us.  Consider Joshua Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe
in the Trinity.
>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a Christian?
>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the 
>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate, 
>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the 
>>> world for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't 
>>> exclusively Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's 
>>> obvious.  Anyone who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies 
>>> exclusively upon him as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  
>>> For us as Mormons Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an 
>>> excelent life.  He isn't just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is 
>>> a member of the godhead, our redemer and, ultimately, the only true
savior for humankind.
>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice 
>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.  In 
>>> my book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the 
>>> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics 
>>> and Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox 
>>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
>>>  Warmest regards,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>> Kirt,
>>>>
>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really 
>>>> embarrassed at some of the things they said. However, in this case 
>>>> there is no need for embarrassment. i felt that the information I 
>>>> gave in my reply would be good for the whole list.
>>>>
>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but 
>>>> o> it
>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2 
>>>>>> other major religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're 
>>>>>> currently studying the reformation in school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that 
>>>>>> time that all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible 
>>>>>> for the "common people" to read, while the protestants (please 
>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) were the first to start reading the 
>>>>>> bible in common languages, believing that the bible should be 
>>>>>> read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your 
>>>>>>> answers about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm 
>>>>>>> understanding right, it is your belief that the 
>>>>>>> majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman Catholic church is simply 
>>>>>>> clarifying the revelation already given.
>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation 
>>>>>>> of God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement 
>>>>>>> between Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation 
>>>>>>> of the Bible.
>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by 
>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way 
>>>>>>> to look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is 
>>>>>>> more open to the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a 
>>>>>>> huge generalization, but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.  
>>>>>>> You said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's 
>>>>>>> vissions were genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a 
>>>>>>> Catholic, do you think he was misguided?  Partially inspired but 
>>>>>>> ultimately mistaken in taking it too far?  Inspired by the 
>>>>>>> devil?  I won't get offended, I want your honest opinion and I'm 
>>>>>>> not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say escential.
>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally 
>>>>>>> I'm convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I 
>>>>>>> believe with everything every faith claims, but I see the hand 
>>>>>>> of God throughout the religious world.
>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the 
>>>>>>> idea of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on
it?
>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious 
>>>>>>>> dialog. In fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
evangelization.
>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see 
>>>>>>>> that it's motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work 
>>>>>>>> of evangelization is to spread these attitudes of Christ even 
>>>>>>>> in the secular world.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and 
>>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few 
>>>>>>>>> worthwhile distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I 
>>>>>>>>> definitely don't mean to offend, if there are any 
>>>>>>>>> non-christian regular readers of this mailinglist?  I don't 
>>>>>>>>> mean to procelyte, and I don't want this thread to turn into 
>>>>>>>>> an overblown theological debate, but I'm very interested in 
>>>>>>>>> talking with and learning from people from other faiths.  If 
>>>>>>>>> that's you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please 
>>>>>>>>> email me off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize 
>>>>>>>>> you or anything.
>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> hn%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director GodTouches Digital Ministry, 
>>>>>>>> Inc.
>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> t.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>> 0godtouches.org
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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