[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Thu Apr 28 20:00:12 UTC 2011

Kirt,

This is a misunderstanding. I didn't say that s9ome of my LDS friends do 
not identify themselves as Christians. nAs far as I know, they all do.

John

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:48:49AM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
> Dear list,
>   I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand I'm
> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone here,
> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with that
> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was made
> earlier on this thread.
> 	John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils down
> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are those
> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then I
> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition, you're
> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider Joshua
> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a Christian?
>  His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the world
> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
> 	So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't exclusively
> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.  Anyone
> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon him
> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as Mormons
> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He isn't
> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the godhead,
> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice
> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.  In my
> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the
> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics and
> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
>   Warmest regards,
> Kirt
> 
> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
> > Kirt,
> >
> > This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really embarrassed
> > at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is no need
> > for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply would
> > be good for the whole list.
> >
> > Blessed Easter,
> > John
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
> > o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but it
> >> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
> >>
> >> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Kirt:
> >> > I do believe you are right in the divisions.
> >> > I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2 other
> >> > major
> >> > religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently studying
> >> > the
> >> > reformation in school.
> >> >
> >> > According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that time
> >> > that
> >> > all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the "common
> >> > people" to read,
> >> > while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first to
> >> > start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the bible
> >> > should
> >> > be read and understood by each and every believer.
> >> >
> >> > Am I correct?
> >> >
> >> > Jorge
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> John,
> >> >>  I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your answers
> >> >> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm understanding right,
> >> >> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman
> >> >> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already given.  In
> >> >> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation of
> >> >> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement between
> >> >> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the Bible.
> >> >> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
> >> >> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way to
> >> >> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more open to
> >> >> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge generalization,
> >> >> but would you say I'm right there?
> >> >>  Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.  You
> >> >> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's vissions were
> >> >> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you think he
> >> >> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking
> >> >> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I want your
> >> >> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
> >> >>  And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say escential.
> >> >> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally I'm
> >> >> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I believe with
> >> >> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God throughout
> >> >> the religious world.
> >> >>  I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the idea
> >> >> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on it?
> >> >>  God bless,
> >> >> Kirt
> >> >>
> >> >> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
> >> >>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious dialog. In
> >> >>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of evangelization. If
> >> >>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see that it's
> >> >>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
> >> >>> evangelization
> >> >>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> John
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
> >> >>>> Dear list,
> >> >>>>  I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and
> >> >>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few worthwhile
> >> >>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely don't mean
> >> >>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of this
> >> >>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this thread
> >> >>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very interested
> >> >>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths.  If
> >> >>>> that's
> >> >>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
> >> >>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or anything.
> >> >>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
> >> >>>>  God bless,
> >> >>>> Kirt
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
> >> >>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
> >> >>> http://www.godtouches.org
> >> >>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> >> >>> Peace, Love, Service
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >> >>>
> >> >>
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >
> > --
> > John J. Boyer, Executive Director
> > GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
> > http://www.godtouches.org
> > Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> > Peace, Love, Service
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> 
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-- 
John J. Boyer, Executive Director
GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
http://www.godtouches.org
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Peace, Love, Service