[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Thu Apr 28 21:00:33 UTC 2011

And John,
  Fair enough.  I misunderstood.  My appologies...but, at any rate, I
think this has sparked some good discussion.  :)

On 4/28/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either never
> heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was.  Will someone like
> Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go to hell
> simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he was here?
>
> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> any  literature other than the bible is not God inspired there  fore is
>> not
>> reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just what i believe,
>> if
>> you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven  then how to you explain the need
>> for
>> Him to sacrafice  His life for our sins?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>
>>
>>> Kirt:
>>> I agree with your view,
>>> my difference being that although all are children of God,
>>> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or
>>> not.
>>>
>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has been
>>> written by
>>> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name prior to this.
>>>
>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic church,
>>> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the way,
>>> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>
>>> Jorge
>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jorge,
>>>>  My church teaches that all humans are children of God.  Christians,
>>>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>>>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit child of
>>>> god.
>>>>  Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea
>>>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the name)
>>>> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
>>>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a central
>>>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the next,
>>>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.  Were
>>>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>>>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who literally
>>>> never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would
>>>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
>>>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith
>>>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I
>>>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
>>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who
>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they will
>>>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to the
>>>> best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just
>>>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies
>>>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately condemned
>>>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>  Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>>  Best,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>> divided,
>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>> But,
>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for "children
>>>>> of
>>>>> God?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus
>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>
>>>>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their views on
>>>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand I'm
>>>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone
>>>>>> here,
>>>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with that
>>>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was made
>>>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
>>>>>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
>>>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils
>>>>>> down
>>>>>> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are those
>>>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then I
>>>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition,
>>>>>> you're
>>>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider
>>>>>> Joshua
>>>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
>>>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the world
>>>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't exclusively
>>>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.  Anyone
>>>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon him
>>>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as Mormons
>>>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He isn't
>>>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the godhead,
>>>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice
>>>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.  In
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the
>>>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>>>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
>>>>>>> embarrassed
>>>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is no
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently
>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that
>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the
>>>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the
>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the
>>>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your answers
>>>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm understanding
>>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman
>>>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already
>>>>>>>>>> given.
>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement
>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the
>>>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>>>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more
>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.  You
>>>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's vissions
>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in
>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I want
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally
>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I believe
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God
>>>>>>>>>> throughout
>>>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the
>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular
>>>>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and
>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few
>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of
>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this
>>>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths.  If
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or
>>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>
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>>
>>
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>