[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
Jorge Paez
computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
Thu Apr 28 22:12:09 UTC 2011
Precisely.
Verse 21 right there states that you must reach God with a clean conscious.
On Apr 28, 2011, at 5:41 PM, qubit wrote:
> Hello Jeanette and all --
> I was just going to mention the following 2 references as quoted from the
> KJV bible that seem to be saying that people have an opportunity to hear and
> accept the Gospel after they are dead.
>
> === 1 Peter 3:18-22... ===
> 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust,
> that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but
> quickened by the Spirit:
>
> 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
>
> 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God
> waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that
> is, eight souls were saved by water.
>
> 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the
> putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience
> toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
>
> 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and
> authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
>
>
>
>
>
> === 1 Peter 4:6 ===
>
> 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,
> that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according
> to God in the spirit.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeanette" <nettiecosp at yahoo.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 2:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>
>
> any literature other than the bible is not God inspired there fore is not
> reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just what i believe, if
> you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven then how to you explain the need for
> Him to sacrafice His life for our sins?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>
>
>> Kirt:
>> I agree with your view,
>> my difference being that although all are children of God,
>> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or
>> not.
>>
>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has been
>> written by
>> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name prior to this.
>>
>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic church,
>> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the way,
>> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>
>> Jorge
>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>
>>> Jorge,
>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God. Christians,
>>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit child of
>>> god.
>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>> christianity." I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea
>>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the name)
>>> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
>>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet. As a Mormon, a central
>>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the next,
>>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ. Were
>>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who literally
>>> never even heard of Jesus Christ. I can't believe in a God who would
>>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
>>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith
>>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers. So, I
>>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who
>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they will
>>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to the
>>> best of their abilities before being saved, though. I'm just
>>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies
>>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately condemned
>>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>> Just my thoughts. I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>> Best,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>
>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>> divided,
>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>> But,
>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for "children of
>>>> God?"
>>>>
>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus
>>>> Christ.
>>>>
>>>> But then how do we define "children of God?"
>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their views on
>>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>
>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>>
>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jorge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread. Please understand I'm
>>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone here,
>>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone. But, with that
>>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was made
>>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
>>>>> themselves as Christian. I think I understand why, although I
>>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian. It ultimately boils down
>>>>> to your definition of a Christian. If the only Christians are those
>>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then I
>>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians. But, by that definition, you're
>>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us. Consider Joshua
>>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a Christian?
>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
>>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the world
>>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>> So this brings me to my next point. If Christians aren't exclusively
>>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian? To me, it's obvious. Anyone
>>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon him
>>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian. For us as Mormons
>>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life. He isn't
>>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the godhead,
>>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice
>>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity. In my
>>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian. So despite the
>>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics and
>>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground. Are Mormons Christian?
>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian? I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really embarrassed
>>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is no
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but it
>>>>>>> went to the whole list. My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2 other
>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently
>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that time
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the
>>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the
>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the
>>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier. Thanks for your answers
>>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition. So, if I'm understanding
>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman
>>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already given.
>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation of
>>>>>>>>> God. If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement between
>>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the
>>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way to
>>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more open
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation? I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made. You
>>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's vissions
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid. So...for you, as a Catholic, do you think
>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>> was misguided? Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in
>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>> it too far? Inspired by the devil? I won't get offended, I want
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally
>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all. That doesn't mean I believe
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God throughout
>>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you. Are you familiar with the idea
>>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity? If so, what are your thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious dialog.
>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see that
>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and
>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here. I'm pretty sure it's one of the few
>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life. But I am curious, and I definitely don't
>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of this
>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist? I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this
>>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths. If
>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
>>>>>>>>>>> off-list? I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or
>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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>
>
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