[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Fri Apr 29 01:16:00 UTC 2011

To all,
  One more thing, and then I'll leave this thread alone.  Earlier
someone (again, can't remember who) claimed that being Atheist means
you don't believe in anything.  From personal experience with dear
Atheist friends, I can say that's absolutely not true.  Atheism is not
believing there is a God.  It is not the belief in nothing.  One of my
Atheist friends is an incredible father, an honest man, and a good
deal more Christlike than many Christians I know.  I think we do
ourselves a disservice when we say all Atheists are Nihilists.
  Warmest regards and God bless,
Kirt

On 4/28/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> To all,
>   A good point was brought up earlier I want to address.  It was said
> (my email program didn't say who said this, I appologize for not
> giving credit where it is due), that it wouldn't make sense for the
> chance to accept Christ to be available after death because that would
> make it meaningless to come to Christ in this life.  On the surface,
> that seems like a really valid argument...but I think the thing to
> remember is that Christ is accepted in the heart.  If someone's heart
> wants to live it up in this life, they have no concept of morals,
> etc...that's not the kind of person, probably, who will accept Jesus.
> In the Book of Mormon, which I believe is scripture, it is taught that
> whatever spirit has power to possess a man in this life will have
> power to possess him hereafter.  So, basically, if someone's ruled by
> sin and they have no desire to repent, those same sins and temptations
> will have power in the world to come.  So...the earlier we can bring
> Christ in to our hearts, the earlier we can truly conqor our "natural
> man" "carnal nature" or whatever you want to call it.  The fact that
> the majority of people throughout history never even had the chance to
> hear Christ's message in mortality, through no fault of their own,
> should not be sufficient cause to damn them forever to eternal torment
> in hell.  If God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten
> son, but the only way to accept the son of God is in this mortal life,
> he must only have loved a small fraction of the world and not the
> whole world.
>   Warmest regards,
> Kirt
>
> On 4/28/11, Alan Wheeler <awheeler65 at windstream.net> wrote:
>> No, it is Christ, Himself, who said He is the only way:
>> John 14
>>
>> 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have
>> told
>> you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
>> 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you
>> to
>> be with me that you also may be where I am.
>> 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
>> 5 ¶Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how
>> can
>> we know the way?”
>> 6 ¶Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes
>> to
>> the Father except through me.
>> 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on,
>> you
>> do know him and have seen him.”
>>
>>
>> Take note, Jesus didn't say "I am *A* way, *A* truth, and *A* life," but
>> rather said "I am *THE* way, *THE* truth, and *THE* life." Use of the
>> word
>> "the" in that context denotes singleness or exclusivity. So, Jesus was,
>> in
>> essence saying he was the only way, the only truth, and the only life.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Jorge Paez
>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:11 PM
>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>
>> Christ is who we Christians say is the only way.
>>
>> I think its a bigger crime not to believe in God, E.G., atheists, then
>> not
>> to believe in Christ.
>>
>>
>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Jeanette wrote:
>>
>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked forward
>>> to
>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal
>> himself to.  but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is my
>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they will go
>> to
>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ made on
>> the
>> cross. if being good is all it takes  then you are saying there is no
>> need
>> for hell either.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>
>>>
>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
>>>> commandments
>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>>
>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because
>>>> they
>> did not know him?
>>>>
>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but
>>>> for
>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.
>>>>
>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know Christ,
>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>>
>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on the
>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>>
>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either
>>>>> never heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was.  Will someone
>>>>> like Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go
>>>>> to hell simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he was
>> here?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> any  literature other than the bible is not God inspired there
>>>>>> fore is not reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just
>>>>>> what i believe, if you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven  then how
>>>>>> to you explain the need for Him to sacrafice  His life for our sins?
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God, only
>>>>>>> those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or
>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has
>>>>>>> been written by Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember
>>>>>>> his name prior to this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic
>>>>>>> church, and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by
>>>>>>> the way, I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.
>>>>>>>> Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans,
>>>>>>>> Atheists, Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a
>>>>>>>> spirit child of god.
>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an
>>>>>>>> idea advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall
>>>>>>>> the name) that basically all people living christlike lives have
>>>>>>>> access to Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a
>>>>>>>> Mormon, a central part of my faith is that, some day, either in
>>>>>>>> this life or the next, all people will have the chance to hear
>>>>>>>> the gospel of Christ.  Were this not true, God would not be a
>>>>>>>> fair and just God because, throughout the ages, there have been
>>>>>>>> billions of people who literally never even heard of Jesus
>>>>>>>> Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would damn someone merely
>>>>>>>> because they were never exposed to Christ in mortal life, or
>>>>>>>> because they chose to live by their original faith instead,
>>>>>>>> without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I believe
>>>>>>>> that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims and
>>>>>>>> HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who
>>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they
>>>>>>>> will all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his
>>>>>>>> commandments to the best of their abilities before being saved,
>>>>>>>> though.  I'm just rambling...but basically I believe that, just
>>>>>>>> because someone dies without faith in Christ, I don't believe they
>> are ultimately condemned to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text, you will
>>>>>>>>> see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for
>>>>>>>>> "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in
>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their
>>>>>>>>> views on Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please
>>>>>>>>>> understand I'm not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend
>>>>>>>>>> to debate anyone here, and I'm not trying to impose my own
>>>>>>>>>> faith on anyone.  But, with that disclaimer out of the way, I
>>>>>>>>>> want to answer one point that was made earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not
>>>>>>>>>> identify themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why,
>>>>>>>>>> although I whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It
>>>>>>>>>> ultimately boils down to your definition of a Christian.  If
>>>>>>>>>> the only Christians are those who worship the Trinity as God,
>>>>>>>>>> and confess the Nycene creed, then I suppose we Mormons aren't
>>>>>>>>>> Christians.  But, by that definition, you're excluding some of
>>>>>>>>>> the most Christian people among us.  Consider Joshua Lester, a
>> oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three
>>>>>>>>>> separate, distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather
>>>>>>>>>> than
>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the
>>>>>>>>>> world for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>> exclusively Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me,
>>>>>>>>>> it's obvious. Anyone who accepts Christ as lord and savior and
>>>>>>>>>> relies exclusively upon him as the only means of salvation is a
>>>>>>>>>> Christian.  For us as Mormons Jesus is not just a good moral
>>>>>>>>>> guide for an excelent life.  He isn't just an inspired teacher
>>>>>>>>>> or prophet- he is a member of the godhead, our redemer and,
>> ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning
>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for
>>>>>>>>>> eternity.  In my book, if you agree with that, you're a
>>>>>>>>>> Christian.  So despite the numerous and significant theological
>>>>>>>>>> differences between Catholics and Protestants and Mormons and
>>>>>>>>>> Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox Christians, we all have that
>> common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically,
>>>>>>>>>> "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed at some of the things they said. However, in this
>>>>>>>>>>> case there is no need for embarrassment. i felt that the
>>>>>>>>>>> information I gave in my reply would be good for the whole
>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John,
>>>>>>>>>>> o> but it
>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 other major religions of the world (Judaism and Islam),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we're currently studying the reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that time that all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible for the "common people" to read, while the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start reading the bible in common languages, believing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the bible should be read and understood by each and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding right, it is your belief that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman Catholic church is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply clarifying the revelation already given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation of God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disagreement between Catholics and Protestants is a matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of interpretation of the Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "correct" way to look at scripture, while in Protestant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christianity it is more open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization, but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. You said something to the effect of believing Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smith's vissions were genuine, but not valid.  So...for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, as a Catholic, do you think he was misguided?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking it too
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your honest opinion and I'm not going to take it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally I'm convinced God has inspired them all.  That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't mean I believe with everything every faith claims,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I see the hand of God throughout the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the idea of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your
>> thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious
>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see that it's motto is "peace, love, service". I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that my work of evangelization is to spread these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few worthwhile distractions in life.  But I am curious,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I definitely don't mean to offend, if there are any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-christian regular readers of this mailinglist?  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this thread to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in talking with and learning from people from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other faiths. If that's you, and you wouldn't mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking, would you please email me off-list?  I won't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director GodTouches Digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>> ohn%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director GodTouches Digital Ministry,
>>>>>>>>>>> Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>> rt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> putertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> .crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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