[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Jorge Paez computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
Fri Apr 29 01:18:05 UTC 2011 

Very well said.


On Apr 28, 2011, at 7:30 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:

> Jorge,
>  I think at some point every person who ever lived will have the
> chance to hear the gospel of Christ.  At that point, Christ will
> literally be the only way to heaven.  But I believe there are many
> roads to him...there have to be, otherwise most people who lived on
> earth would have no hope of being saved.
> 
> On 4/28/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jeanette,
>>  Most people before Christ were not looking forward to his coming.
>> The Jews were...and they were a small, small percentage of the people
>> before Christ.  There were millions upon millions of Chinese, Indians
>> (I mean in India), Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Babylonians, Native
>> Americans, Africans, Austrailian Aboriginies, etc who had no idea a
>> Christ would come.  Are they going to hell just because they couldn't
>> have known?
>> 
>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked forward to
>>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal
>>> himself to.  but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is my
>>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they will go
>>> to
>>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ made on
>>> the
>>> cross. if being good is all it takes  then you are saying there is no
>>> need
>>> for hell either.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
>>>> commandments
>>>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>> 
>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because
>>>> they
>>>> did not know him?
>>>> 
>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but for
>>>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.
>>>> 
>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know Christ,
>>>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>> 
>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on the
>>>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>> 
>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either never
>>>>> heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was.  Will someone like
>>>>> Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go to hell
>>>>> simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he was here?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> any  literature other than the bible is not God inspired there  fore
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just what i
>>>>>> believe,
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven  then how to you explain the
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> Him to sacrafice  His life for our sins?
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God,
>>>>>>> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> written by
>>>>>>> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name prior to
>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic church,
>>>>>>> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the way,
>>>>>>> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.  Christians,
>>>>>>>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>>>>>>>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit child
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> god.
>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea
>>>>>>>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the name)
>>>>>>>> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
>>>>>>>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a
>>>>>>>> central
>>>>>>>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the next,
>>>>>>>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.  Were
>>>>>>>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>>>>>>>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who
>>>>>>>> literally
>>>>>>>> never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
>>>>>>>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith
>>>>>>>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I
>>>>>>>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and
>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to the
>>>>>>>> best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just
>>>>>>>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies
>>>>>>>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately
>>>>>>>> condemned
>>>>>>>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>>>>>>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for
>>>>>>>>> "children
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> God?"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus
>>>>>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their views
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand
>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone
>>>>>>>>>> here,
>>>>>>>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was
>>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
>>>>>>>>>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
>>>>>>>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils
>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are
>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition,
>>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider
>>>>>>>>>> Joshua
>>>>>>>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
>>>>>>>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than
>>>>>>>>>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the
>>>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.
>>>>>>>>>> Anyone
>>>>>>>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon
>>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as Mormons
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He
>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the
>>>>>>>>>> godhead,
>>>>>>>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning
>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice
>>>>>>>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.
>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the
>>>>>>>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>>>>>>>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons
>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically,
>>>>>>>>>> "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed
>>>>>>>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is
>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently
>>>>>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vissions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
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