[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Jorge Paez computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
Fri Apr 29 23:40:39 UTC 2011 

Amen.
I'm not saying you get to choose after death,
just that God reveals to each person as he or she can understand.


On Apr 29, 2011, at 1:43 AM, Jeanette wrote:

> i personally believe that god reveals himself to all people and all people have the choice to choose God or not no matter when they lived or died, i do not belive that the bible supports any opportunity to believe after death, like i said before, i do nt knw who wil or won't go to hell or heaven at all, somesupposed Christians i know do not live a life that i would call Christian but their heart condition is what matters and their relationship with christ is the issue.  i do not spend a lot of time wondering about whether the folks i knew or didn't know and the family members i have who lived years and years ago who chose not to accept Christ or even god back before Christ came to earth are going to heaven.  i spend my tie trying to love the Lord my God with all my heart, all my might and all my soul and love my neighbor as myself, the two most important commandments according to Jesus.
> I truly just see nopoint as i said in the idea that if you do not accept Christ on earth you get a second chance, why would one choose here if  it didn't matter one way or another, seems like the whole idea of sharing the gospel is a waste of time then.  that's like telling someone if tyhey choose to steal and murdeer and go to jail that after they go to jail they can then get out later, i am just expressing my beliefs and i do not judge anyone else for theirs, God is the only judge.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
> 
> 
>> Jeanette,
>> Most people before Christ were not looking forward to his coming.
>> The Jews were...and they were a small, small percentage of the people
>> before Christ.  There were millions upon millions of Chinese, Indians
>> (I mean in India), Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Babylonians, Native
>> Americans, Africans, Austrailian Aboriginies, etc who had no idea a
>> Christ would come.  Are they going to hell just because they couldn't
>> have known?
>> 
>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked forward to
>>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal
>>> himself to.  but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is my
>>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they will go to
>>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ made on the
>>> cross. if being good is all it takes  then you are saying there is no need
>>> for hell either.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's commandments
>>>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>> 
>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because they
>>>> did not know him?
>>>> 
>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but for
>>>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.
>>>> 
>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know Christ,
>>>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>> 
>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on the
>>>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>> 
>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either never
>>>>> heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was.  Will someone like
>>>>> Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go to hell
>>>>> simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he was here?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> any  literature other than the bible is not God inspired there  fore is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just what i believe,
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven  then how to you explain the need
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> Him to sacrafice  His life for our sins?
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God,
>>>>>>> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or
>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has been
>>>>>>> written by
>>>>>>> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name prior to this.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic church,
>>>>>>> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the way,
>>>>>>> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.  Christians,
>>>>>>>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>>>>>>>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit child of
>>>>>>>> god.
>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea
>>>>>>>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the name)
>>>>>>>> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
>>>>>>>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a central
>>>>>>>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the next,
>>>>>>>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.  Were
>>>>>>>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>>>>>>>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who literally
>>>>>>>> never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would
>>>>>>>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
>>>>>>>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith
>>>>>>>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I
>>>>>>>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
>>>>>>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who
>>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they will
>>>>>>>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to the
>>>>>>>> best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just
>>>>>>>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies
>>>>>>>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately condemned
>>>>>>>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>>>>>>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for "children
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> God?"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus
>>>>>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their views
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand I'm
>>>>>>>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone
>>>>>>>>>> here,
>>>>>>>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with that
>>>>>>>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was made
>>>>>>>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
>>>>>>>>>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
>>>>>>>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils
>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are those
>>>>>>>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then I
>>>>>>>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition,
>>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider
>>>>>>>>>> Joshua
>>>>>>>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
>>>>>>>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the
>>>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.
>>>>>>>>>> Anyone
>>>>>>>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon
>>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as Mormons
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He isn't
>>>>>>>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the godhead,
>>>>>>>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice
>>>>>>>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity. In
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the
>>>>>>>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>>>>>>>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed
>>>>>>>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is no
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently
>>>>>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vissions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
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