[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Jorge Paez computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
Fri Apr 29 23:59:06 UTC 2011 

John:
Thank you for clarrifying,
I never really understood the concept of Purgatory until now.

Thanks,

Jorge



On Apr 29, 2011, at 11:56 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:

> Laura,
> 
> Another good post. The statement in Acts that Jesus' is the only name in 
> which anyone can be saved means that Jesus opened the way for all 
> humanity to participate in the mercy of God. In the Bible, Name means 
> not a title but a capability or power. Without Jesus, no hyuman being 
> could be with God. With him, we are all ikn His hands, which are 
> infinitely merciful.
> 
> Nonbelievers will, according to the Catholic belief in Purgatory, have a 
> chance to accept Jesus after death.
> 
> Peace, Love, Service, 
> John
> 
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 07:04:08PM -0500, qubit wrote:
>> I have one other comment -- hope I make sense...
>> If someone lives a charitable, honest life, but does not join a Christian 
>> church perhaps because of personal upbringing, or even because of a bad 
>> example from a supposed Christian, then at some point in his life or after 
>> death be is exposed to the truth about Christ's teachings, I believe that 
>> person would be likely to embrace it.
>> In addition, I wonder if someone who does not live a model life might have 
>> to go through some real difficulties to learn the hard way that the only way 
>> is through Christ.
>> But the thing I have to believe is that whatever the judgement is of an 
>> individual, Jesus would make that decision in love, and He is the only one 
>> who can judge.
>> In fact, I think whatever example you come up with of a "type of person" 
>> that would be judged one way or another, someone might come along who blows 
>> your stereotype out of the water... (Hmm -- no double meaning is intended in 
>> my choice of terms...)
>> One thing that I wonder about, in the scriptures it says the first 
>> commandment is to love God with all might, mind and strength, and the second 
>> to love neighbor as self.  The thought crossed my mind that that first 
>> commandment might be difficult, as when great calamities happen, such as the 
>> current unbelievable tornados.  Some people blame God for everything that 
>> goes wrong.
>> I think using the opportunity to pray rather than blame can help.
>> Anyway, I was just thinking about it.
>> --le
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jeanette" <nettiecosp at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 5:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>> 
>> 
>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked forward to
>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal
>> himself to.  but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is my
>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they will go to
>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ made on the
>> cross. if being good is all it takes  then you are saying there is no need
>> for hell either.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>> 
>> 
>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's commandments
>>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>> 
>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because they
>>> did not know him?
>>> 
>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but for
>>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.
>>> 
>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know Christ,
>>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>> 
>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on the
>>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>> 
>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either never
>>>> heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was.  Will someone like
>>>> Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go to hell
>>>> simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he was here?
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> any  literature other than the bible is not God inspired there  fore is
>>>>> not
>>>>> reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just what i believe,
>>>>> if
>>>>> you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven  then how to you explain the need
>>>>> for
>>>>> Him to sacrafice  His life for our sins?
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God,
>>>>>> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or
>>>>>> not.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has been
>>>>>> written by
>>>>>> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name prior to this.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic church,
>>>>>> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the way,
>>>>>> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.  Christians,
>>>>>>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>>>>>>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit child of
>>>>>>> god.
>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea
>>>>>>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the name)
>>>>>>> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
>>>>>>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a central
>>>>>>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the next,
>>>>>>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.  Were
>>>>>>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>>>>>>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who literally
>>>>>>> never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would
>>>>>>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
>>>>>>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith
>>>>>>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I
>>>>>>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
>>>>>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who
>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they will
>>>>>>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to the
>>>>>>> best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just
>>>>>>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies
>>>>>>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately condemned
>>>>>>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>>>>>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for "children
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> God?"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus
>>>>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their views
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand I'm
>>>>>>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone
>>>>>>>>> here,
>>>>>>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with that
>>>>>>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was made
>>>>>>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
>>>>>>>>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
>>>>>>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils
>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are those
>>>>>>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then I
>>>>>>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition,
>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider
>>>>>>>>> Joshua
>>>>>>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
>>>>>>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the
>>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.
>>>>>>>>> Anyone
>>>>>>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon
>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as Mormons
>>>>>>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He isn't
>>>>>>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the godhead,
>>>>>>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice
>>>>>>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.  In
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the
>>>>>>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>>>>>>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed
>>>>>>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is no
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently
>>>>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that
>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the
>>>>>>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the
>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already
>>>>>>>>>>>>> given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement
>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vissions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God
>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> -- 
> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
> http://www.godtouches.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> Peace, Love, Service
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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