[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Sat Apr 30 02:07:05 UTC 2011

Well I'm not muslim so I won't defend them,
but from what I understand he's the same name for our God.

On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:16 PM, Jeanette wrote:

> the old testament tells us ther is only one true God, as i understand it ala is not the one true god, he is a different god, sorry but that is what i understand.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
> To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 4:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
> 
> 
> Very interesting.
> Despite my firm belief in Jesus Christ, and the Catholic faith, I have also talked to Muslim friends of mine and we agree on many things.
> 
> Interestingly enough, Islam itself is a word that means, submission to Allah (God), so it makes sense that Jesus was considered a good Muslim however, according to what I've read,
> there is no mention of Jesus after his birth in the Quran.
> Please let me know if you can tell me the versus in which his life and passion are referenced.
> 
> I am a firm believer in Christianity but like to research other religions as I believe this simply makes my understanding overall of other people's religions and customs much better and thereby strengthens me as a believer.
> 
> Jorge
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 28, 2011, at 11:32 PM, qubit wrote:
> 
>> Greetings again --
>> This list has been active lately...
>> 
>> I am not muslim, as defined by any of the branches of Islam, but I have a
>> brother who has read considerably the muslim writings including several
>> translations of the Quran, and I also have read a little in the Quran out of
>> curiosity.
>> I have read only through Surah 2, but it is true there are many good and
>> peaceful teachings in this part of the Quran.    However, like the Bible,
>> there are also harsh parts of the Quran that lead many to justify violent
>> behavior such as is in the news.  This however, is also true of the Bible --
>> there are parts of the Bible that can be twisted to justify a lot of
>> unchristian behaviors.  (I'm not equating the Bible and the Quran -- they
>> are very different.)
>> Your statement that muslims don't believe Jesus is Christ actually is false.
>> According to my brother, the Quran calls Jesus the Messiah, and in fact
>> includes an interesting telling of Mary and the virgin conception of Jesus,
>> plus a discussion of his life and crucifixion.  I'm afraid i don't know what
>> it says about the resurrection, but according to my brother, the Quran
>> refers to Jesus and his disciples as true muslims, because of their
>> willingness to submit to God (Allah).
>> My brother even compares the English translations to the original Arabic,
>> and has discovers some interesting information -- such as the word usually
>> translated as "Christians" in the English translations of the Quran, is
>> actually the name of a group of Arabs in Muhammad's time who had a belief
>> about Christianity that Muhammad disagreed with.  It has nothing to do with
>> modern Christians, or even the Christians that fought in the crusades, which
>> was centuries after Muhammad's time.
>> 
>> Anyway, my brother also discovered inconsistencies in the various English
>> translations of the Quran -- one English version clashed in meaning with the
>> others.
>> He also claims that if you look at the original Arabic, the verses in
>> question agree with verses of the New Testament that discuss the mission of
>> Jesus and related things.  However, what he has found is that Christian and
>> Muslim scholars believe the Bible and Quran clash, and when he tries to
>> point out the verses in question, he is met with mixed reactions. The
>> Christians he talks to find his discovery interesting, while the muslims
>> almost always get hot under the collar. He has even been escorted out of
>> places and asked not to come back...
>> 
>> One verse in the Quran I found a little incredulous was Sura 2:256
>> "There is no compulsion in religion..."
>> I guess it surprised me.
>> 
>> Sorry for the rambling.
>> Funny thing: even with all the negative reaction my brother gets from most
>> muslims who listen to him, he was told by one man that he thought my brother
>> was a true muslim.  My brother took it as a compliment.
>> 
>> I do want to say one thing more:
>> i agree that there is some truth in all world religions, but that doesn't
>> mean all of their writings are correct or agree.
>> I don't think you can put 2 religions -- like Christianity and Buddhism --
>> side by side and find they are really the same.
>> An example -- I once read the book "The Power of Myth", which tried to tie
>> all the world's myths and religious beliefs together by looking for
>> similarities.  I also saw the author interviewed on PBS.  It sounded
>> interested, until I got to the part where Buddhism and Christianity were
>> discussed.  The author actually tried to equate the missions of Buddha and
>> Jesus.
>> I knew a lot about Christianity, and not so much about Buddhism, but the
>> discussion didn't feel right. I read a little more about Buddha and my
>> conclusion were that while Jesus and Buddha were compassionate spiritual
>> leaders, their missions were quite different.  I also didn't feel like it
>> was appropriate to call Jesus a myth.    The author also misrepresented or
>> took liberties with the story told in scripture, which I felt he couldn't
>> do. I also felt that if he couldn't get Christianity right, which I did have
>> a knowledge about, how could I trust what he had to say about the other
>> religions?  I would rather research themby talking to persons who live them.
>> 
>> Anyway, have a nice evening.
>> --le
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 8:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>> 
>> 
>> Alan:
>> With all due respect,
>> you have to be aware the bible uses complex langauge structures.
>> For example: have you ever tried reading Revelations?
>> You should, but it is a very complicated book to understand.
>> 
>> What he means by the Father threw me is simple:
>> if you know him, you know the father.
>> 
>> But… and this is an important point,
>> it is a greater crime to not believe in God, then it is to not recognize
>> Jesus.
>> 
>> After all, muslims don't recognize Jesus as the Christ and yet their codes
>> of ethics stand amongst one of the strictest, and strongest I've seen.
>> 
>> There are many muslims I know who would put so-called Christians to shae
>> with their devotion to God.
>> 
>> Are you saying they are bound to hell?
>> 
>> Not attacking you, just wondering.
>> 
>> Jorge
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:04 PM, Alan Wheeler wrote:
>> 
>>> No, it is Christ, Himself, who said He is the only way:
>>> John 14
>>> 
>>> 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have
>>> told
>>> you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
>>> 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you
>>> to
>>> be with me that you also may be where I am.
>>> 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
>>> 5 ¶Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how
>>> can
>>> we know the way?”
>>> 6 ¶Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes
>>> to
>>> the Father except through me.
>>> 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on,
>>> you
>>> do know him and have seen him.”
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Take note, Jesus didn't say "I am *A* way, *A* truth, and *A* life," but
>>> rather said "I am *THE* way, *THE* truth, and *THE* life." Use of the word
>>> "the" in that context denotes singleness or exclusivity. So, Jesus was, in
>>> essence saying he was the only way, the only truth, and the only life.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Jorge Paez
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:11 PM
>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>> 
>>> Christ is who we Christians say is the only way.
>>> 
>>> I think its a bigger crime not to believe in God, E.G., atheists, then not
>>> to believe in Christ.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Jeanette wrote:
>>> 
>>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked forward to
>>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal
>>> himself to.  but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is my
>>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they will go to
>>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ made on
>>> the
>>> cross. if being good is all it takes  then you are saying there is no need
>>> for hell either.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
>>>>> commandments
>>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because
>>>>> they
>>> did not know him?
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but for
>>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know Christ,
>>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on the
>>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
>>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either
>>>>>> never heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was.  Will someone
>>>>>> like Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go
>>>>>> to hell simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he was
>>> here?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> any  literature other than the bible is not God inspired there
>>>>>>> fore is not reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just
>>>>>>> what i believe, if you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven  then how
>>>>>>> to you explain the need for Him to sacrafice  His life for our sins?
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God, only
>>>>>>>> those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or
>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has
>>>>>>>> been written by Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember
>>>>>>>> his name prior to this.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic
>>>>>>>> church, and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by
>>>>>>>> the way, I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.
>>>>>>>>> Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans,
>>>>>>>>> Atheists, Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a
>>>>>>>>> spirit child of god.
>>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>>> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an
>>>>>>>>> idea advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall
>>>>>>>>> the name) that basically all people living christlike lives have
>>>>>>>>> access to Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a
>>>>>>>>> Mormon, a central part of my faith is that, some day, either in
>>>>>>>>> this life or the next, all people will have the chance to hear
>>>>>>>>> the gospel of Christ.  Were this not true, God would not be a
>>>>>>>>> fair and just God because, throughout the ages, there have been
>>>>>>>>> billions of people who literally never even heard of Jesus
>>>>>>>>> Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would damn someone merely
>>>>>>>>> because they were never exposed to Christ in mortal life, or
>>>>>>>>> because they chose to live by their original faith instead,
>>>>>>>>> without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I believe
>>>>>>>>> that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims and
>>>>>>>>> HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who
>>>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they
>>>>>>>>> will all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his
>>>>>>>>> commandments to the best of their abilities before being saved,
>>>>>>>>> though.  I'm just rambling...but basically I believe that, just
>>>>>>>>> because someone dies without faith in Christ, I don't believe they
>>> are ultimately condemned to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text, you will
>>>>>>>>>> see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for
>>>>>>>>>> "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their
>>>>>>>>>> views on Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please
>>>>>>>>>>> understand I'm not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend
>>>>>>>>>>> to debate anyone here, and I'm not trying to impose my own
>>>>>>>>>>> faith on anyone.  But, with that disclaimer out of the way, I
>>>>>>>>>>> want to answer one point that was made earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not
>>>>>>>>>>> identify themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why,
>>>>>>>>>>> although I whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It
>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately boils down to your definition of a Christian.  If
>>>>>>>>>>> the only Christians are those who worship the Trinity as God,
>>>>>>>>>>> and confess the Nycene creed, then I suppose we Mormons aren't
>>>>>>>>>>> Christians.  But, by that definition, you're excluding some of
>>>>>>>>>>> the most Christian people among us.  Consider Joshua Lester, a
>>> oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three
>>>>>>>>>>> separate, distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the
>>>>>>>>>>> world for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me,
>>>>>>>>>>> it's obvious. Anyone who accepts Christ as lord and savior and
>>>>>>>>>>> relies exclusively upon him as the only means of salvation is a
>>>>>>>>>>> Christian.  For us as Mormons Jesus is not just a good moral
>>>>>>>>>>> guide for an excelent life.  He isn't just an inspired teacher
>>>>>>>>>>> or prophet- he is a member of the godhead, our redemer and,
>>> ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning
>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for
>>>>>>>>>>> eternity.  In my book, if you agree with that, you're a
>>>>>>>>>>> Christian.  So despite the numerous and significant theological
>>>>>>>>>>> differences between Catholics and Protestants and Mormons and
>>>>>>>>>>> Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox Christians, we all have that
>>> common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically,
>>>>>>>>>>> "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed at some of the things they said. However, in this
>>>>>>>>>>>> case there is no need for embarrassment. i felt that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> information I gave in my reply would be good for the whole
>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John,
>>>>>>>>>>>> o> but it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 other major religions of the world (Judaism and Islam),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we're currently studying the reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that time that all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible for the "common people" to read, while the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start reading the bible in common languages, believing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the bible should be read and understood by each and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding right, it is your belief that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman Catholic church is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply clarifying the revelation already given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation of God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disagreement between Catholics and Protestants is a matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of interpretation of the Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "correct" way to look at scripture, while in Protestant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christianity it is more open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization, but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. You said something to the effect of believing Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smith's vissions were genuine, but not valid.  So...for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, as a Catholic, do you think he was misguided?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking it too
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your honest opinion and I'm not going to take it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally I'm convinced God has inspired them all.  That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't mean I believe with everything every faith claims,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I see the hand of God throughout the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the idea of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your
>>> thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious
>>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see that it's motto is "peace, love, service". I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that my work of evangelization is to spread these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few worthwhile distractions in life.  But I am curious,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I definitely don't mean to offend, if there are any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-christian regular readers of this mailinglist?  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this thread to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in talking with and learning from people from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other faiths. If that's you, and you wouldn't mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking, would you please email me off-list?  I won't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director GodTouches Digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/j
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ohn%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director GodTouches Digital Ministry,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ki
>>>>>>>>>>>> rt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/com
>>>>>>>>>>> putertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt
>>>>>>>>>> .crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/compu
>>>>>>>>> tertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettie
>>>>>>>> cosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.cr
>>>>>>> azydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computer
>>>>>> techjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecos
>>>>> p%40yahoo.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computerte
>>>> chjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/awheeler65%40win
>>> dstream.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com