[Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection - whatis the right way?-understanding others

[Joshua Lester]

Jeanette, another great post!
Blessings, Joshua

On 4/29/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
> islam is the worship of a false god not the god of the bible
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 8:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection -
> whatis the right way?-understanding others
>
>
>> Dear list,
>>  I promise, this'll be the last post from me for a while.  I think I
>> got too emotional here and I need to take a step back for a few
>> days...so I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I don't take back anything I
>> said but I do wish I was less confrontational and more open to sincere
>> conversation.
>>  Joshua- you're exactly right about Christianity being a relationship
>> with Christ, but consider this.  Sincere Islam isn't a religion- it's
>> a submission to God's will.  Although I personally don't agree with
>> all the teachings of the Quran or everything said by the prophet
>> Muhammad (peace be upon him), in that way me and you both are Muslims
>> because we're submitting to the will of God as we understand it.
>> Sikhism, one of the largest world religions from India, isn't a
>> religion by the logic you're using because the word "sikh" means
>> "disciple."  While I do not adhear to all the Sikh teachings- I
>> certainly try to be the best Disciple of God I can.  In that way we
>> are both Sikhs.  Janism, another smaller faith tradition from India,
>> is not a religion because "jain" means "victor"- the way of life for
>> the sincere Jain is to become a victor over the vices of the material
>> world.  Although we both certainly are not Jains, we are in a way
>> because, through Jesus, we gain a victory over death and hell.
>>  So...you're spot on about Christianity not being just a religion.
>> But the same applies to virtually every divinely-inspired faith
>> tradition out there- and, if you study any real serious religion in
>> the world, I guarantee it won't take long to find inspiration from
>> God.  That doesn't mean everything taught by any church is right...but
>> it does mean I believe with all my heart and soul God has a hand in
>> all sincere religion throughout the world.  Read the Quran, read the
>> Bhagivad Gita (and make sure you learn to spell it better than I can),
>> read the Analects of Confucius, read the Dao de Jing, read the
>> Tripitika of the Buddhists (again, spelling), read the Guru Granth
>> Sahib of the Sikhs- read the Bahai book of laws...and you'd have to be
>> spiritually blind not to see the inspiration of God.
>>  Just my thoughts and God bless,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 4/29/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
>>> Nikki, I'm glad you've posted this on the list.
>>> Christianity isn't a religion, anyway.
>>> It's a relationship with Jesus Christ.
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>
>>> On 4/29/11, Nikki <daizies304 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>     Ok. I can't keep quiet anymore.
>>>> It doesn't matter what "religion," I despise the term, or Bible version.
>>>> The truth is God's interpretation.
>>>> It's not anyone's place to judge except for God's.
>>>> In my opinion, debating God is a sin.
>>>> I did not mean to crush anyone's beliefs or start anything.
>>>> Just speaking my mind like everyone else.
>>>> God bless you all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Jorge Paez
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:26 PM
>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection -
>>>> whatis the right way?-understanding others
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Joshua for the reference.
>>>> I indeed have a copy of the King James version.
>>>> I will study it this weekend.
>>>>
>>>> Jorge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 8:09 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Constantine, and the Council of Nicea invented the term, "trinity."
>>>>> It isn't found in scripture.
>>>>> Catholics use a total diferent book.
>>>>> We use the King James Bible.
>>>>> No wonder!
>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/29/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Very interesting point Joshua.
>>>>>> Will certainly study that.
>>>>>> And, 325 AD is actually interesting,
>>>>>> because it was after the First Vatican--in other words,
>>>>>> after the Catholic church stablished the magestirium and declaired its
>>>>>> official traditions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the Holy Trinity,
>>>>>> but I respect your point.
>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jorge, we are all creations of God, not children of God.
>>>>>>> Jesus said, that when we're in sin, we are Satan's children.
>>>>>>> When we come into Christ, we become God's children.
>>>>>>> Those that do not come into Christ, are not God's children.
>>>>>>> That's Bible.
>>>>>>> How do we come into Christ?
>>>>>>> First of all, who is Jesus.
>>>>>>> Some teach that he's the second person in the Godhead, and some teach
>>>>>>> that he's God, all by himself.
>>>>>>> Well, you need to understand, that there are not 3 persons in the
>>>>>>> Godhead.
>>>>>>> This will ruffle a few feathers on this list, but that's the truth.
>>>>>>> John 4:24 says, that God is a spirit, (not a person.)
>>>>>>> They that worship God must worship him, in spirit and in truth.
>>>>>>> The Holy Spirit is a spirit, (not a person.)
>>>>>>> Persons have flesh and blood, spirits don't.
>>>>>>> The only one that became flesh was the son.
>>>>>>> How?
>>>>>>> 1 Timothy, 3:16 tells us that God was made manifest in the flesh.
>>>>>>> God, (spirit,) manifested in the flesh, (son.)
>>>>>>> The flesh revealed God's name, (Jesus.)
>>>>>>> Colossians, 1:19 "and it pleased the Father, that in him should all
>>>>>>> fullness dwell."
>>>>>>> Colossians, 2:9. "And in him, (Jesus,) dwelleth all the fullness of
>>>>>>> the Godhead bodily."
>>>>>>> Jesus was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and now,
>>>>>>> he's
>>>>>>> the Holy Ghost in regeneration.
>>>>>>> Matthew 28:19 says for us to baptize in the name of the Father, and
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
>>>>>>> Notice the word is "name," (not "names.")
>>>>>>> I've just established that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy
>>>>>>> Ghost, was Jesus.
>>>>>>> That's why we baptize in Jesus's name, (Acts, 2:38.)
>>>>>>> Everyone was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Lord Jesus,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Lord," never, "Father Son and Holy Ghost."
>>>>>>> That didn't start, until 325 A.D.
>>>>>>> Read Acts, 2:38, Acts, 8:16, Acts, 10, Acts, 19:1/6.
>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/29/11, Alan Wheeler <awheeler65 at windstream.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Jeanette and everyone,
>>>>>>>> Let me share a couple of sections from the set of fundamental
>>>>>>>> beliefs
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Seventh-day Adventist church, which I am going to be joinging soon.
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> clearly, using only the bible, explains what happens after we die,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> humanity is judged. I know it's a lot of scripture to look at, but
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> all look, you'll see the truth of it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 26. Death and Resurrection:
>>>>>>>> The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will
>>>>>>>> grant
>>>>>>>> eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious
>>>>>>>> state
>>>>>>>> for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the
>>>>>>>> resurrected
>>>>>>>> righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> meet
>>>>>>>> their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the
>>>>>>>> unrighteous,
>>>>>>>> will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16;
>>>>>>>> Eccl.
>>>>>>>> 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1
>>>>>>>> Thess.
>>>>>>>> 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
>>>>>>>> The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate,
>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>> living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At
>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>> close
>>>>>>>> Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to
>>>>>>>> earth.
>>>>>>>> The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> angels
>>>>>>>> will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and
>>>>>>>> cleanse
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.
>>>>>>>> (Rev.
>>>>>>>> 20;
>>>>>>>> 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Jeanette
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:22 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right
>>>>>>>> way?-understanding others
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> everyone seems to want to talk about God's love but not about God's
>>>>>>>> wrath
>>>>>>>> against sin, it seems that it is all about us and not about a loving
>>>>>>>> god
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> gives us a choice to choose His ways or not to, everything in life
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> consequences so what you are saying is there are no consequences to
>>>>>>>> choosing
>>>>>>>> a different way here on earth and if you don't like the after life
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> you can change your mind, don't see that in the bible.
>>>>>>>> as to whether folks are a child of God i kind of think it has to do
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> what your definition of child of God is, if you mean since God
>>>>>>>> created
>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>> all then we are all his children, i suppose that is true.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 7:33 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right
>>>>>>>> way?
>>>>>>>> -understanding others
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joshua:
>>>>>>>> are you suggesting that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are
>>>>>>>> therefore not children of God?
>>>>>>>> Is this not hypocritical?
>>>>>>>> Does it not go against the image of the loving God Christians like
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> portray?
>>>>>>>> For love is for all,
>>>>>>>> love for some is not true love.
>>>>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jorge, this is the same "new thought," "seeker sensitive," stuff,
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> see in today's churches.
>>>>>>>>> The Jews didn't accept Jesus, but the Bible is clear, that every
>>>>>>>>> knee
>>>>>>>>> shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, that Jesus Christ is
>>>>>>>>> Lord.
>>>>>>>>> There's only one way to Heaven, and that's through Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>> There's no way around it.
>>>>>>>>> The other religions aren't correct.
>>>>>>>>> Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the
>>>>>>>>> Father, but by him.
>>>>>>>>> That's what Jesus said.
>>>>>>>>> He wasn't sent to Christians, because there weren't any Christians,
>>>>>>>>> until Antioch.
>>>>>>>>> The Bible says, that they were called Christians first, at Antioch.
>>>>>>>>> Jesus was sent to the world, those who accept him are Christians.
>>>>>>>>> What constitutes a true Christian?
>>>>>>>>> Acts, 2:38 tells us where to begin our Christian walk.
>>>>>>>>> "then Peter said unto them,
>>>>>>>>> "Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus
>>>>>>>>> Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of
>>>>>>>>> the Holy Ghost."
>>>>>>>>> There are 3 steps to salvation, according to Peter.
>>>>>>>>> #1. Repentence, #2. Baptism in Jesus's name, and #3. Receiving the
>>>>>>>>> Holy Ghost, with the initial sign of speaking in other tongues, as
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Spirit gives utterance, (see Acts, 2:4.) If you're going to call
>>>>>>>>> yourself a Christian, you need to start with the way the Apostles
>>>>>>>>> did.
>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> There is no clear answer on what the "right" way is.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Of course for us Christians it is knowing Jesus, but the other
>>>>>>>>>> religions have different perspectives.
>>>>>>>>>> Take this theologians line:
>>>>>>>>>> "Muhammad was sent to the Muslims, as Jesus was sent to the
>>>>>>>>>> Christians, as Moses was sent to the jews."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What does this tell you?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, if you realize the fact that the jews never accepted Jesus
>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>> Christus (greek for Christ), but just as one more teacher, so to
>>>>>>>>>> speak, and that their main holiday to celebrate the glory of God
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> passover, in which God leads the Jewish nation out of Israel, and
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> fact that we celebrate our revelation from God, Easter, on the
>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>> week, it shows you that the right way isn't set in stone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because our 2 religions have 2 completely different revelations,
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> from Moses and one from Jesus, both who were messengers of God
>>>>>>>>>> (and
>>>>>>>>>> for Christians, Jesus is part of the holy trinity, which is God)
>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>> effect, both revelations were made by God on to us in different
>>>>>>>>>> eras
>>>>>>>>>> and in different forms.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now add to that one more layer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the gospel, Jesus says something very interesting after the
>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>> revelation of his passion to the 12 disciples. When Peter asks,
>>>>>>>>>> "Master, why do the scribes say that Elisha must come first?"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus replied "I assure you Elisha will come." then says ".but
>>>>>>>>>> surely
>>>>>>>>>> Elisha has already come, and man has done on to him what they
>>>>>>>>>> will."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That part caught my attention. If you know your old testament, you
>>>>>>>>>> know that Elisha, as known by the Christians, has already come.
>>>>>>>>>> His
>>>>>>>>>> book is written years before the new testament even begins.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But. where and when and who is the Elisha that Jesus says will
>>>>>>>>>> come?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I believe the answer is, and I hope that you take this with a
>>>>>>>>>> theological point and not with bias, but I think it was a
>>>>>>>>>> reference
>>>>>>>>>> to the Muslim prophet Mohammed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is this not "unChristian?" you ask.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My answer is this,
>>>>>>>>>> God is the ultimate creator, and the ultimate power, all religions
>>>>>>>>>> agree on this do they not?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some may ask why Mohammed never appeared in the bible, or any of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> later religious figures.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Simple answer.
>>>>>>>>>> For each his own messenger was sent.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Signs in times of trouble.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> First came Moses, in the old testament. His people were inslaved
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> Egypt at the time. If you remember the old testament well, due to
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> writings of the time, the Hebrews are called "God's people" in the
>>>>>>>>>> text. Without diving into too much detail, Moses saved the people
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> Israel, and led them not only out of Egypt, but set standards for
>>>>>>>>>> them in a life in Israel, in accordance with the will of God.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then came Jesus.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus appeared in a time where Israel was controlled by the
>>>>>>>>>> Romans,
>>>>>>>>>> and the religious leaders at the time were many times corrupt and
>>>>>>>>>> power hungry.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Notice that his teachings brought on huge crowds, but soon after,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> at the birth of Christianity, the jews that had followed Jesus
>>>>>>>>>> split
>>>>>>>>>> into 2 groups.
>>>>>>>>>> Those who called themselves Christians, and those who stuck to the
>>>>>>>>>> original Torah.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Notice now the appearance of Mohammed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He, too, like Jesus, was born to a family of humble station. They
>>>>>>>>>> were merchants. Soon he became well known for his honest business.
>>>>>>>>>> When he turned 40, he had his first vision, threw the angel
>>>>>>>>>> Jabril,
>>>>>>>>>> known in English as Gabriel.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He too, preached in a time when there was a lack of morals and
>>>>>>>>>> values.
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike Jesus, who preached to the Jews, who had been given
>>>>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>>>>> commandments, the people of Mecca at the time were polytheists.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And now consider my last example.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Buddha.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This prince, born in one of the royal families of India, renounced
>>>>>>>>>> all wealth, and lived in poverty before finding the middle path
>>>>>>>>>> threw
>>>>>>>>>> meditation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He too, stressed the same exact code of behavior as Jesus, as did
>>>>>>>>>> Moses, as did Mohammed (peace be upon them all) but in different
>>>>>>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I believe the right way is not a single religion, or a sect, it is
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> way of life.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you do kindness, be generous, and humble, despite whatever
>>>>>>>>>> greatness you might reach, then you are, though perhaps unknown to
>>>>>>>>>> you, obeying the same code that almost all religious figures have
>>>>>>>>>> taught threw out the years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And now if I say that the right way is one, why different
>>>>>>>>>> religions?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Simply a matter of understanding and language.
>>>>>>>>>> My statement as far as that goes will be this:
>>>>>>>>>> pick the faith not that your parents had, but that YOU have.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That means,
>>>>>>>>>> it doesn't matter what faith your parents had, but as long as it
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> something in which you are strong in faith, that is your true
>>>>>>>>>> religion.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and remember no one else is better then
>>>>>>>>>> oneself.
>>>>>>>>>> Converting others to your religion is simply changing the language
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> a message that is already there--but I believe you should convert,
>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>> long as you don't defame the name of God, or any of his
>>>>>>>>>> messengers,
>>>>>>>>>> no matter what their name may be.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> chjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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