[Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection - whatis the right way?-understanding others

Jorge Paez computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
Sat Apr 30 04:14:29 UTC 2011 

Amen.


On Apr 29, 2011, at 10:47 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:

> Dear list,
>  I promise, this'll be the last post from me for a while.  I think I
> got too emotional here and I need to take a step back for a few
> days...so I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I don't take back anything I
> said but I do wish I was less confrontational and more open to sincere
> conversation.
>  Joshua- you're exactly right about Christianity being a relationship
> with Christ, but consider this.  Sincere Islam isn't a religion- it's
> a submission to God's will.  Although I personally don't agree with
> all the teachings of the Quran or everything said by the prophet
> Muhammad (peace be upon him), in that way me and you both are Muslims
> because we're submitting to the will of God as we understand it.
> Sikhism, one of the largest world religions from India, isn't a
> religion by the logic you're using because the word "sikh" means
> "disciple."  While I do not adhear to all the Sikh teachings- I
> certainly try to be the best Disciple of God I can.  In that way we
> are both Sikhs.  Janism, another smaller faith tradition from India,
> is not a religion because "jain" means "victor"- the way of life for
> the sincere Jain is to become a victor over the vices of the material
> world.  Although we both certainly are not Jains, we are in a way
> because, through Jesus, we gain a victory over death and hell.
>  So...you're spot on about Christianity not being just a religion.
> But the same applies to virtually every divinely-inspired faith
> tradition out there- and, if you study any real serious religion in
> the world, I guarantee it won't take long to find inspiration from
> God.  That doesn't mean everything taught by any church is right...but
> it does mean I believe with all my heart and soul God has a hand in
> all sincere religion throughout the world.  Read the Quran, read the
> Bhagivad Gita (and make sure you learn to spell it better than I can),
> read the Analects of Confucius, read the Dao de Jing, read the
> Tripitika of the Buddhists (again, spelling), read the Guru Granth
> Sahib of the Sikhs- read the Bahai book of laws...and you'd have to be
> spiritually blind not to see the inspiration of God.
>  Just my thoughts and God bless,
> Kirt
> 
> On 4/29/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
>> Nikki, I'm glad you've posted this on the list.
>> Christianity isn't a religion, anyway.
>> It's a relationship with Jesus Christ.
>> Blessings, Joshua
>> 
>> On 4/29/11, Nikki <daizies304 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>    Ok. I can't keep quiet anymore.
>>> It doesn't matter what "religion," I despise the term, or Bible version.
>>> The truth is God's interpretation.
>>> It's not anyone's place to judge except for God's.
>>> In my opinion, debating God is a sin.
>>> I did not mean to crush anyone's beliefs or start anything.
>>> Just speaking my mind like everyone else.
>>> God bless you all.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jorge Paez
>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:26 PM
>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection -
>>> whatis the right way?-understanding others
>>> 
>>> Thank you Joshua for the reference.
>>> I indeed have a copy of the King James version.
>>> I will study it this weekend.
>>> 
>>> Jorge
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 8:09 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Constantine, and the Council of Nicea invented the term, "trinity."
>>>> It isn't found in scripture.
>>>> Catholics use a total diferent book.
>>>> We use the King James Bible.
>>>> No wonder!
>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/29/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Very interesting point Joshua.
>>>>> Will certainly study that.
>>>>> And, 325 AD is actually interesting,
>>>>> because it was after the First Vatican--in other words,
>>>>> after the Catholic church stablished the magestirium and declaired its
>>>>> official traditions.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the Holy Trinity,
>>>>> but I respect your point.
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jorge, we are all creations of God, not children of God.
>>>>>> Jesus said, that when we're in sin, we are Satan's children.
>>>>>> When we come into Christ, we become God's children.
>>>>>> Those that do not come into Christ, are not God's children.
>>>>>> That's Bible.
>>>>>> How do we come into Christ?
>>>>>> First of all, who is Jesus.
>>>>>> Some teach that he's the second person in the Godhead, and some teach
>>>>>> that he's God, all by himself.
>>>>>> Well, you need to understand, that there are not 3 persons in the
>>>>>> Godhead.
>>>>>> This will ruffle a few feathers on this list, but that's the truth.
>>>>>> John 4:24 says, that God is a spirit, (not a person.)
>>>>>> They that worship God must worship him, in spirit and in truth.
>>>>>> The Holy Spirit is a spirit, (not a person.)
>>>>>> Persons have flesh and blood, spirits don't.
>>>>>> The only one that became flesh was the son.
>>>>>> How?
>>>>>> 1 Timothy, 3:16 tells us that God was made manifest in the flesh.
>>>>>> God, (spirit,) manifested in the flesh, (son.)
>>>>>> The flesh revealed God's name, (Jesus.)
>>>>>> Colossians, 1:19 "and it pleased the Father, that in him should all
>>>>>> fullness dwell."
>>>>>> Colossians, 2:9. "And in him, (Jesus,) dwelleth all the fullness of
>>>>>> the Godhead bodily."
>>>>>> Jesus was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and now, he's
>>>>>> the Holy Ghost in regeneration.
>>>>>> Matthew 28:19 says for us to baptize in the name of the Father, and of
>>>>>> the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
>>>>>> Notice the word is "name," (not "names.")
>>>>>> I've just established that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy
>>>>>> Ghost, was Jesus.
>>>>>> That's why we baptize in Jesus's name, (Acts, 2:38.)
>>>>>> Everyone was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Lord Jesus, the
>>>>>> Lord," never, "Father Son and Holy Ghost."
>>>>>> That didn't start, until 325 A.D.
>>>>>> Read Acts, 2:38, Acts, 8:16, Acts, 10, Acts, 19:1/6.
>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 4/29/11, Alan Wheeler <awheeler65 at windstream.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Jeanette and everyone,
>>>>>>> Let me share a couple of sections from the set of fundamental beliefs
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Seventh-day Adventist church, which I am going to be joinging soon.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> clearly, using only the bible, explains what happens after we die, and
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> humanity is judged. I know it's a lot of scripture to look at, but if
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> all look, you'll see the truth of it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 26. Death and Resurrection:
>>>>>>> The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant
>>>>>>> eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious
>>>>>>> state
>>>>>>> for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected
>>>>>>> righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to
>>>>>>> meet
>>>>>>> their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the
>>>>>>> unrighteous,
>>>>>>> will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16;
>>>>>>> Eccl.
>>>>>>> 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1
>>>>>>> Thess.
>>>>>>> 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
>>>>>>> The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in
>>>>>>> heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate,
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its
>>>>>>> close
>>>>>>> Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to
>>>>>>> earth.
>>>>>>> The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his
>>>>>>> angels
>>>>>>> will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and
>>>>>>> cleanse
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.
>>>>>>> (Rev.
>>>>>>> 20;
>>>>>>> 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Jeanette
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:22 AM
>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right
>>>>>>> way?-understanding others
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> everyone seems to want to talk about God's love but not about God's
>>>>>>> wrath
>>>>>>> against sin, it seems that it is all about us and not about a loving
>>>>>>> god
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> gives us a choice to choose His ways or not to, everything in life has
>>>>>>> consequences so what you are saying is there are no consequences to
>>>>>>> choosing
>>>>>>> a different way here on earth and if you don't like the after life you
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> you can change your mind, don't see that in the bible.
>>>>>>> as to whether folks are a child of God i kind of think it has to do
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> what your definition of child of God is, if you mean since God created
>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>> all then we are all his children, i suppose that is true.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 7:33 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right
>>>>>>> way?
>>>>>>> -understanding others
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Joshua:
>>>>>>> are you suggesting that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are
>>>>>>> therefore not children of God?
>>>>>>> Is this not hypocritical?
>>>>>>> Does it not go against the image of the loving God Christians like to
>>>>>>> portray?
>>>>>>> For love is for all,
>>>>>>> love for some is not true love.
>>>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jorge, this is the same "new thought," "seeker sensitive," stuff, we
>>>>>>>> see in today's churches.
>>>>>>>> The Jews didn't accept Jesus, but the Bible is clear, that every knee
>>>>>>>> shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.
>>>>>>>> There's only one way to Heaven, and that's through Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>> There's no way around it.
>>>>>>>> The other religions aren't correct.
>>>>>>>> Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the
>>>>>>>> Father, but by him.
>>>>>>>> That's what Jesus said.
>>>>>>>> He wasn't sent to Christians, because there weren't any Christians,
>>>>>>>> until Antioch.
>>>>>>>> The Bible says, that they were called Christians first, at Antioch.
>>>>>>>> Jesus was sent to the world, those who accept him are Christians.
>>>>>>>> What constitutes a true Christian?
>>>>>>>> Acts, 2:38 tells us where to begin our Christian walk.
>>>>>>>> "then Peter said unto them,
>>>>>>>> "Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus
>>>>>>>> Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of
>>>>>>>> the Holy Ghost."
>>>>>>>> There are 3 steps to salvation, according to Peter.
>>>>>>>> #1. Repentence, #2. Baptism in Jesus's name, and #3. Receiving the
>>>>>>>> Holy Ghost, with the initial sign of speaking in other tongues, as
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Spirit gives utterance, (see Acts, 2:4.) If you're going to call
>>>>>>>> yourself a Christian, you need to start with the way the Apostles
>>>>>>>> did.
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> There is no clear answer on what the "right" way is.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Of course for us Christians it is knowing Jesus, but the other
>>>>>>>>> religions have different perspectives.
>>>>>>>>> Take this theologians line:
>>>>>>>>> "Muhammad was sent to the Muslims, as Jesus was sent to the
>>>>>>>>> Christians, as Moses was sent to the jews."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> What does this tell you?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Well, if you realize the fact that the jews never accepted Jesus as
>>>>>>>>> Christus (greek for Christ), but just as one more teacher, so to
>>>>>>>>> speak, and that their main holiday to celebrate the glory of God is
>>>>>>>>> passover, in which God leads the Jewish nation out of Israel, and
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> fact that we celebrate our revelation from God, Easter, on the very
>>>>>>>>> week, it shows you that the right way isn't set in stone.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Because our 2 religions have 2 completely different revelations, one
>>>>>>>>> from Moses and one from Jesus, both who were messengers of God (and
>>>>>>>>> for Christians, Jesus is part of the holy trinity, which is God) In
>>>>>>>>> effect, both revelations were made by God on to us in different eras
>>>>>>>>> and in different forms.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Now add to that one more layer.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> In the gospel, Jesus says something very interesting after the first
>>>>>>>>> revelation of his passion to the 12 disciples. When Peter asks,
>>>>>>>>> "Master, why do the scribes say that Elisha must come first?"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jesus replied "I assure you Elisha will come." then says ".but
>>>>>>>>> surely
>>>>>>>>> Elisha has already come, and man has done on to him what they will."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> That part caught my attention. If you know your old testament, you
>>>>>>>>> know that Elisha, as known by the Christians, has already come. His
>>>>>>>>> book is written years before the new testament even begins.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But. where and when and who is the Elisha that Jesus says will come?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I believe the answer is, and I hope that you take this with a
>>>>>>>>> theological point and not with bias, but I think it was a reference
>>>>>>>>> to the Muslim prophet Mohammed.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Is this not "unChristian?" you ask.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> My answer is this,
>>>>>>>>> God is the ultimate creator, and the ultimate power, all religions
>>>>>>>>> agree on this do they not?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Some may ask why Mohammed never appeared in the bible, or any of the
>>>>>>>>> later religious figures.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Simple answer.
>>>>>>>>> For each his own messenger was sent.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Signs in times of trouble.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> First came Moses, in the old testament. His people were inslaved in
>>>>>>>>> Egypt at the time. If you remember the old testament well, due to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> writings of the time, the Hebrews are called "God's people" in the
>>>>>>>>> text. Without diving into too much detail, Moses saved the people of
>>>>>>>>> Israel, and led them not only out of Egypt, but set standards for
>>>>>>>>> them in a life in Israel, in accordance with the will of God.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Then came Jesus.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jesus appeared in a time where Israel was controlled by the Romans,
>>>>>>>>> and the religious leaders at the time were many times corrupt and
>>>>>>>>> power hungry.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Notice that his teachings brought on huge crowds, but soon after,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> at the birth of Christianity, the jews that had followed Jesus split
>>>>>>>>> into 2 groups.
>>>>>>>>> Those who called themselves Christians, and those who stuck to the
>>>>>>>>> original Torah.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Notice now the appearance of Mohammed.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> He, too, like Jesus, was born to a family of humble station. They
>>>>>>>>> were merchants. Soon he became well known for his honest business.
>>>>>>>>> When he turned 40, he had his first vision, threw the angel Jabril,
>>>>>>>>> known in English as Gabriel.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> He too, preached in a time when there was a lack of morals and
>>>>>>>>> values.
>>>>>>>>> Unlike Jesus, who preached to the Jews, who had been given previous
>>>>>>>>> commandments, the people of Mecca at the time were polytheists.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> And now consider my last example.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The Buddha.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This prince, born in one of the royal families of India, renounced
>>>>>>>>> all wealth, and lived in poverty before finding the middle path
>>>>>>>>> threw
>>>>>>>>> meditation.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> He too, stressed the same exact code of behavior as Jesus, as did
>>>>>>>>> Moses, as did Mohammed (peace be upon them all) but in different
>>>>>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I believe the right way is not a single religion, or a sect, it is a
>>>>>>>>> way of life.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> If you do kindness, be generous, and humble, despite whatever
>>>>>>>>> greatness you might reach, then you are, though perhaps unknown to
>>>>>>>>> you, obeying the same code that almost all religious figures have
>>>>>>>>> taught threw out the years.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> And now if I say that the right way is one, why different religions?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Simply a matter of understanding and language.
>>>>>>>>> My statement as far as that goes will be this:
>>>>>>>>> pick the faith not that your parents had, but that YOU have.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> That means,
>>>>>>>>> it doesn't matter what faith your parents had, but as long as it is
>>>>>>>>> something in which you are strong in faith, that is your true
>>>>>>>>> religion.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and remember no one else is better then oneself.
>>>>>>>>> Converting others to your religion is simply changing the language
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> a message that is already there--but I believe you should convert,
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> long as you don't defame the name of God, or any of his messengers,
>>>>>>>>> no matter what their name may be.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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