[Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection -whatis the right way?-understanding others

Jorge Paez computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
Sat Apr 30 16:27:15 UTC 2011 

Of course not,
I am not saying idle worship is not a sin--it is,
just that you have to be aware God reveals on to his people as he chooses, and within the frame of mind in which they can understand him.


On Apr 30, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Jeanette wrote:

> amen and amen, we are to worship God and God alone, He is the one true God, worshiping anything else is a sin. will not get you to heaven to worship anyting or anyone else.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Ragain" <belovedconsecrated2god at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection -whatis the right way?-understanding others
> 
> 
>> by this logic I could worship a tree or my foot and I'd still go to heaven! if thats the case why worship anything at all? I could simply be a good person and God would know I tried...I don't think so! not the God I service!
>> when He tells to put no other Gods before Him I believe He means it! and if all Gods were the same why would He bother telling us this...I believe it is a sin to say that God is the same as any other false god or idol!!
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:47 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear list,
>>> I promise, this'll be the last post from me for a while.  I think I
>>> got too emotional here and I need to take a step back for a few
>>> days...so I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I don't take back anything I
>>> said but I do wish I was less confrontational and more open to sincere
>>> conversation.
>>> Joshua- you're exactly right about Christianity being a relationship
>>> with Christ, but consider this.  Sincere Islam isn't a religion- it's
>>> a submission to God's will.  Although I personally don't agree with
>>> all the teachings of the Quran or everything said by the prophet
>>> Muhammad (peace be upon him), in that way me and you both are Muslims
>>> because we're submitting to the will of God as we understand it.
>>> Sikhism, one of the largest world religions from India, isn't a
>>> religion by the logic you're using because the word "sikh" means
>>> "disciple."  While I do not adhear to all the Sikh teachings- I
>>> certainly try to be the best Disciple of God I can.  In that way we
>>> are both Sikhs.  Janism, another smaller faith tradition from India,
>>> is not a religion because "jain" means "victor"- the way of life for
>>> the sincere Jain is to become a victor over the vices of the material
>>> world.  Although we both certainly are not Jains, we are in a way
>>> because, through Jesus, we gain a victory over death and hell.
>>> So...you're spot on about Christianity not being just a religion.
>>> But the same applies to virtually every divinely-inspired faith
>>> tradition out there- and, if you study any real serious religion in
>>> the world, I guarantee it won't take long to find inspiration from
>>> God.  That doesn't mean everything taught by any church is right...but
>>> it does mean I believe with all my heart and soul God has a hand in
>>> all sincere religion throughout the world.  Read the Quran, read the
>>> Bhagivad Gita (and make sure you learn to spell it better than I can),
>>> read the Analects of Confucius, read the Dao de Jing, read the
>>> Tripitika of the Buddhists (again, spelling), read the Guru Granth
>>> Sahib of the Sikhs- read the Bahai book of laws...and you'd have to be
>>> spiritually blind not to see the inspiration of God.
>>> Just my thoughts and God bless,
>>> Kirt
>>> 
>>> On 4/29/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
>>>> Nikki, I'm glad you've posted this on the list.
>>>> Christianity isn't a religion, anyway.
>>>> It's a relationship with Jesus Christ.
>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/29/11, Nikki <daizies304 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>   Ok. I can't keep quiet anymore.
>>>>> It doesn't matter what "religion," I despise the term, or Bible version.
>>>>> The truth is God's interpretation.
>>>>> It's not anyone's place to judge except for God's.
>>>>> In my opinion, debating God is a sin.
>>>>> I did not mean to crush anyone's beliefs or start anything.
>>>>> Just speaking my mind like everyone else.
>>>>> God bless you all.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Jorge Paez
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:26 PM
>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection -
>>>>> whatis the right way?-understanding others
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you Joshua for the reference.
>>>>> I indeed have a copy of the King James version.
>>>>> I will study it this weekend.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 8:09 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Constantine, and the Council of Nicea invented the term, "trinity."
>>>>>> It isn't found in scripture.
>>>>>> Catholics use a total diferent book.
>>>>>> We use the King James Bible.
>>>>>> No wonder!
>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 4/29/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Very interesting point Joshua.
>>>>>>> Will certainly study that.
>>>>>>> And, 325 AD is actually interesting,
>>>>>>> because it was after the First Vatican--in other words,
>>>>>>> after the Catholic church stablished the magestirium and declaired its
>>>>>>> official traditions.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the Holy Trinity,
>>>>>>> but I respect your point.
>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jorge, we are all creations of God, not children of God.
>>>>>>>> Jesus said, that when we're in sin, we are Satan's children.
>>>>>>>> When we come into Christ, we become God's children.
>>>>>>>> Those that do not come into Christ, are not God's children.
>>>>>>>> That's Bible.
>>>>>>>> How do we come into Christ?
>>>>>>>> First of all, who is Jesus.
>>>>>>>> Some teach that he's the second person in the Godhead, and some teach
>>>>>>>> that he's God, all by himself.
>>>>>>>> Well, you need to understand, that there are not 3 persons in the
>>>>>>>> Godhead.
>>>>>>>> This will ruffle a few feathers on this list, but that's the truth.
>>>>>>>> John 4:24 says, that God is a spirit, (not a person.)
>>>>>>>> They that worship God must worship him, in spirit and in truth.
>>>>>>>> The Holy Spirit is a spirit, (not a person.)
>>>>>>>> Persons have flesh and blood, spirits don't.
>>>>>>>> The only one that became flesh was the son.
>>>>>>>> How?
>>>>>>>> 1 Timothy, 3:16 tells us that God was made manifest in the flesh.
>>>>>>>> God, (spirit,) manifested in the flesh, (son.)
>>>>>>>> The flesh revealed God's name, (Jesus.)
>>>>>>>> Colossians, 1:19 "and it pleased the Father, that in him should all
>>>>>>>> fullness dwell."
>>>>>>>> Colossians, 2:9. "And in him, (Jesus,) dwelleth all the fullness of
>>>>>>>> the Godhead bodily."
>>>>>>>> Jesus was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and now, he's
>>>>>>>> the Holy Ghost in regeneration.
>>>>>>>> Matthew 28:19 says for us to baptize in the name of the Father, and of
>>>>>>>> the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
>>>>>>>> Notice the word is "name," (not "names.")
>>>>>>>> I've just established that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy
>>>>>>>> Ghost, was Jesus.
>>>>>>>> That's why we baptize in Jesus's name, (Acts, 2:38.)
>>>>>>>> Everyone was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Lord Jesus, the
>>>>>>>> Lord," never, "Father Son and Holy Ghost."
>>>>>>>> That didn't start, until 325 A.D.
>>>>>>>> Read Acts, 2:38, Acts, 8:16, Acts, 10, Acts, 19:1/6.
>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 4/29/11, Alan Wheeler <awheeler65 at windstream.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Jeanette and everyone,
>>>>>>>>> Let me share a couple of sections from the set of fundamental beliefs
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Seventh-day Adventist church, which I am going to be joinging soon.
>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>> clearly, using only the bible, explains what happens after we die, and
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> humanity is judged. I know it's a lot of scripture to look at, but if
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> all look, you'll see the truth of it.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 26. Death and Resurrection:
>>>>>>>>> The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant
>>>>>>>>> eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious
>>>>>>>>> state
>>>>>>>>> for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected
>>>>>>>>> righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to
>>>>>>>>> meet
>>>>>>>>> their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the
>>>>>>>>> unrighteous,
>>>>>>>>> will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16;
>>>>>>>>> Eccl.
>>>>>>>>> 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1
>>>>>>>>> Thess.
>>>>>>>>> 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
>>>>>>>>> The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in
>>>>>>>>> heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate,
>>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>> living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its
>>>>>>>>> close
>>>>>>>>> Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to
>>>>>>>>> earth.
>>>>>>>>> The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his
>>>>>>>>> angels
>>>>>>>>> will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and
>>>>>>>>> cleanse
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.
>>>>>>>>> (Rev.
>>>>>>>>> 20;
>>>>>>>>> 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Jeanette
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:22 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right
>>>>>>>>> way?-understanding others
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> everyone seems to want to talk about God's love but not about God's
>>>>>>>>> wrath
>>>>>>>>> against sin, it seems that it is all about us and not about a loving
>>>>>>>>> god
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> gives us a choice to choose His ways or not to, everything in life has
>>>>>>>>> consequences so what you are saying is there are no consequences to
>>>>>>>>> choosing
>>>>>>>>> a different way here on earth and if you don't like the after life you
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> you can change your mind, don't see that in the bible.
>>>>>>>>> as to whether folks are a child of God i kind of think it has to do
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> what your definition of child of God is, if you mean since God created
>>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>>> all then we are all his children, i suppose that is true.
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 7:33 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right
>>>>>>>>> way?
>>>>>>>>> -understanding others
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Joshua:
>>>>>>>>> are you suggesting that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are
>>>>>>>>> therefore not children of God?
>>>>>>>>> Is this not hypocritical?
>>>>>>>>> Does it not go against the image of the loving God Christians like to
>>>>>>>>> portray?
>>>>>>>>> For love is for all,
>>>>>>>>> love for some is not true love.
>>>>>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Jorge, this is the same "new thought," "seeker sensitive," stuff, we
>>>>>>>>>> see in today's churches.
>>>>>>>>>> The Jews didn't accept Jesus, but the Bible is clear, that every knee
>>>>>>>>>> shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.
>>>>>>>>>> There's only one way to Heaven, and that's through Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>> There's no way around it.
>>>>>>>>>> The other religions aren't correct.
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the
>>>>>>>>>> Father, but by him.
>>>>>>>>>> That's what Jesus said.
>>>>>>>>>> He wasn't sent to Christians, because there weren't any Christians,
>>>>>>>>>> until Antioch.
>>>>>>>>>> The Bible says, that they were called Christians first, at Antioch.
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus was sent to the world, those who accept him are Christians.
>>>>>>>>>> What constitutes a true Christian?
>>>>>>>>>> Acts, 2:38 tells us where to begin our Christian walk.
>>>>>>>>>> "then Peter said unto them,
>>>>>>>>>> "Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus
>>>>>>>>>> Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of
>>>>>>>>>> the Holy Ghost."
>>>>>>>>>> There are 3 steps to salvation, according to Peter.
>>>>>>>>>> #1. Repentence, #2. Baptism in Jesus's name, and #3. Receiving the
>>>>>>>>>> Holy Ghost, with the initial sign of speaking in other tongues, as
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> Spirit gives utterance, (see Acts, 2:4.) If you're going to call
>>>>>>>>>> yourself a Christian, you need to start with the way the Apostles
>>>>>>>>>> did.
>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> There is no clear answer on what the "right" way is.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course for us Christians it is knowing Jesus, but the other
>>>>>>>>>>> religions have different perspectives.
>>>>>>>>>>> Take this theologians line:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Muhammad was sent to the Muslims, as Jesus was sent to the
>>>>>>>>>>> Christians, as Moses was sent to the jews."
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> What does this tell you?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if you realize the fact that the jews never accepted Jesus as
>>>>>>>>>>> Christus (greek for Christ), but just as one more teacher, so to
>>>>>>>>>>> speak, and that their main holiday to celebrate the glory of God is
>>>>>>>>>>> passover, in which God leads the Jewish nation out of Israel, and
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> fact that we celebrate our revelation from God, Easter, on the very
>>>>>>>>>>> week, it shows you that the right way isn't set in stone.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Because our 2 religions have 2 completely different revelations, one
>>>>>>>>>>> from Moses and one from Jesus, both who were messengers of God (and
>>>>>>>>>>> for Christians, Jesus is part of the holy trinity, which is God) In
>>>>>>>>>>> effect, both revelations were made by God on to us in different eras
>>>>>>>>>>> and in different forms.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Now add to that one more layer.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> In the gospel, Jesus says something very interesting after the first
>>>>>>>>>>> revelation of his passion to the 12 disciples. When Peter asks,
>>>>>>>>>>> "Master, why do the scribes say that Elisha must come first?"
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus replied "I assure you Elisha will come." then says ".but
>>>>>>>>>>> surely
>>>>>>>>>>> Elisha has already come, and man has done on to him what they will."
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> That part caught my attention. If you know your old testament, you
>>>>>>>>>>> know that Elisha, as known by the Christians, has already come. His
>>>>>>>>>>> book is written years before the new testament even begins.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> But. where and when and who is the Elisha that Jesus says will come?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I believe the answer is, and I hope that you take this with a
>>>>>>>>>>> theological point and not with bias, but I think it was a reference
>>>>>>>>>>> to the Muslim prophet Mohammed.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Is this not "unChristian?" you ask.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> My answer is this,
>>>>>>>>>>> God is the ultimate creator, and the ultimate power, all religions
>>>>>>>>>>> agree on this do they not?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Some may ask why Mohammed never appeared in the bible, or any of the
>>>>>>>>>>> later religious figures.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Simple answer.
>>>>>>>>>>> For each his own messenger was sent.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Signs in times of trouble.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> First came Moses, in the old testament. His people were inslaved in
>>>>>>>>>>> Egypt at the time. If you remember the old testament well, due to
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> writings of the time, the Hebrews are called "God's people" in the
>>>>>>>>>>> text. Without diving into too much detail, Moses saved the people of
>>>>>>>>>>> Israel, and led them not only out of Egypt, but set standards for
>>>>>>>>>>> them in a life in Israel, in accordance with the will of God.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Then came Jesus.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus appeared in a time where Israel was controlled by the Romans,
>>>>>>>>>>> and the religious leaders at the time were many times corrupt and
>>>>>>>>>>> power hungry.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Notice that his teachings brought on huge crowds, but soon after,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> at the birth of Christianity, the jews that had followed Jesus split
>>>>>>>>>>> into 2 groups.
>>>>>>>>>>> Those who called themselves Christians, and those who stuck to the
>>>>>>>>>>> original Torah.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Notice now the appearance of Mohammed.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> He, too, like Jesus, was born to a family of humble station. They
>>>>>>>>>>> were merchants. Soon he became well known for his honest business.
>>>>>>>>>>> When he turned 40, he had his first vision, threw the angel Jabril,
>>>>>>>>>>> known in English as Gabriel.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> He too, preached in a time when there was a lack of morals and
>>>>>>>>>>> values.
>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike Jesus, who preached to the Jews, who had been given previous
>>>>>>>>>>> commandments, the people of Mecca at the time were polytheists.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> And now consider my last example.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The Buddha.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This prince, born in one of the royal families of India, renounced
>>>>>>>>>>> all wealth, and lived in poverty before finding the middle path
>>>>>>>>>>> threw
>>>>>>>>>>> meditation.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> He too, stressed the same exact code of behavior as Jesus, as did
>>>>>>>>>>> Moses, as did Mohammed (peace be upon them all) but in different
>>>>>>>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I believe the right way is not a single religion, or a sect, it is a
>>>>>>>>>>> way of life.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> If you do kindness, be generous, and humble, despite whatever
>>>>>>>>>>> greatness you might reach, then you are, though perhaps unknown to
>>>>>>>>>>> you, obeying the same code that almost all religious figures have
>>>>>>>>>>> taught threw out the years.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> And now if I say that the right way is one, why different religions?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Simply a matter of understanding and language.
>>>>>>>>>>> My statement as far as that goes will be this:
>>>>>>>>>>> pick the faith not that your parents had, but that YOU have.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> That means,
>>>>>>>>>>> it doesn't matter what faith your parents had, but as long as it is
>>>>>>>>>>> something in which you are strong in faith, that is your true
>>>>>>>>>>> religion.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and remember no one else is better then oneself.
>>>>>>>>>>> Converting others to your religion is simply changing the language
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> a message that is already there--but I believe you should convert,
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>> long as you don't defame the name of God, or any of his messengers,
>>>>>>>>>>> no matter what their name may be.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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>>>> 
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