[Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection - whatis the right way?-understanding others

Amy Ragain belovedconsecrated2god at gmail.com
Sat Apr 30 16:42:05 UTC 2011 

idol worship is the worship of anything or any god other than Jesus Christ!!  AKA boota, Allal, etc...
unfortunently just being a good person doesn't get you saved...you must make a conscious decision to follow Jesus!
and I don't believe that there is really truly anyone who can say that they've never herd or that they didn't know 1 way or another...everyone can see God's creation wich declares the work of His hands!...doesn't the Bible say somewhere, wish I knew where and how its worded, but doesn't it say, that every man knows in his heart that there is a God??...maybe someone can help me on this!...

On Apr 30, 2011, at 11:22 AM, Jorge Paez wrote:

> Yes,
> with the exception that we have no clear designation of what religions worship idles.
> 
> The only religion I'd suppose you could hypothetically call idle worship is hinduism, though I myself respect them as much as I do the others.
> 
> The point is not weather you lived a "good" life by material standards.
> Many people have lived lives that would follow Christ's example yet they know not who he is.
> Does that doom them then?
> 
> 
> On Apr 30, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Amy Ragain wrote:
> 
>> by this logic I could worship a tree or my foot and I'd still go to heaven! if thats the case why worship anything at all? I could simply be a good person and God would know I tried...I don't think so! not the God I service!
>> when He tells to put no other Gods before Him I believe He means it! and if all Gods were the same why would He bother telling us this...I believe it is a sin to say that God is the same as any other false god or idol!!
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:47 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear list,
>>> I promise, this'll be the last post from me for a while.  I think I
>>> got too emotional here and I need to take a step back for a few
>>> days...so I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I don't take back anything I
>>> said but I do wish I was less confrontational and more open to sincere
>>> conversation.
>>> Joshua- you're exactly right about Christianity being a relationship
>>> with Christ, but consider this.  Sincere Islam isn't a religion- it's
>>> a submission to God's will.  Although I personally don't agree with
>>> all the teachings of the Quran or everything said by the prophet
>>> Muhammad (peace be upon him), in that way me and you both are Muslims
>>> because we're submitting to the will of God as we understand it.
>>> Sikhism, one of the largest world religions from India, isn't a
>>> religion by the logic you're using because the word "sikh" means
>>> "disciple."  While I do not adhear to all the Sikh teachings- I
>>> certainly try to be the best Disciple of God I can.  In that way we
>>> are both Sikhs.  Janism, another smaller faith tradition from India,
>>> is not a religion because "jain" means "victor"- the way of life for
>>> the sincere Jain is to become a victor over the vices of the material
>>> world.  Although we both certainly are not Jains, we are in a way
>>> because, through Jesus, we gain a victory over death and hell.
>>> So...you're spot on about Christianity not being just a religion.
>>> But the same applies to virtually every divinely-inspired faith
>>> tradition out there- and, if you study any real serious religion in
>>> the world, I guarantee it won't take long to find inspiration from
>>> God.  That doesn't mean everything taught by any church is right...but
>>> it does mean I believe with all my heart and soul God has a hand in
>>> all sincere religion throughout the world.  Read the Quran, read the
>>> Bhagivad Gita (and make sure you learn to spell it better than I can),
>>> read the Analects of Confucius, read the Dao de Jing, read the
>>> Tripitika of the Buddhists (again, spelling), read the Guru Granth
>>> Sahib of the Sikhs- read the Bahai book of laws...and you'd have to be
>>> spiritually blind not to see the inspiration of God.
>>> Just my thoughts and God bless,
>>> Kirt
>>> 
>>> On 4/29/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
>>>> Nikki, I'm glad you've posted this on the list.
>>>> Christianity isn't a religion, anyway.
>>>> It's a relationship with Jesus Christ.
>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/29/11, Nikki <daizies304 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>  Ok. I can't keep quiet anymore.
>>>>> It doesn't matter what "religion," I despise the term, or Bible version.
>>>>> The truth is God's interpretation.
>>>>> It's not anyone's place to judge except for God's.
>>>>> In my opinion, debating God is a sin.
>>>>> I did not mean to crush anyone's beliefs or start anything.
>>>>> Just speaking my mind like everyone else.
>>>>> God bless you all.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Jorge Paez
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:26 PM
>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection -
>>>>> whatis the right way?-understanding others
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you Joshua for the reference.
>>>>> I indeed have a copy of the King James version.
>>>>> I will study it this weekend.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 8:09 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Constantine, and the Council of Nicea invented the term, "trinity."
>>>>>> It isn't found in scripture.
>>>>>> Catholics use a total diferent book.
>>>>>> We use the King James Bible.
>>>>>> No wonder!
>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 4/29/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Very interesting point Joshua.
>>>>>>> Will certainly study that.
>>>>>>> And, 325 AD is actually interesting,
>>>>>>> because it was after the First Vatican--in other words,
>>>>>>> after the Catholic church stablished the magestirium and declaired its
>>>>>>> official traditions.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the Holy Trinity,
>>>>>>> but I respect your point.
>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jorge, we are all creations of God, not children of God.
>>>>>>>> Jesus said, that when we're in sin, we are Satan's children.
>>>>>>>> When we come into Christ, we become God's children.
>>>>>>>> Those that do not come into Christ, are not God's children.
>>>>>>>> That's Bible.
>>>>>>>> How do we come into Christ?
>>>>>>>> First of all, who is Jesus.
>>>>>>>> Some teach that he's the second person in the Godhead, and some teach
>>>>>>>> that he's God, all by himself.
>>>>>>>> Well, you need to understand, that there are not 3 persons in the
>>>>>>>> Godhead.
>>>>>>>> This will ruffle a few feathers on this list, but that's the truth.
>>>>>>>> John 4:24 says, that God is a spirit, (not a person.)
>>>>>>>> They that worship God must worship him, in spirit and in truth.
>>>>>>>> The Holy Spirit is a spirit, (not a person.)
>>>>>>>> Persons have flesh and blood, spirits don't.
>>>>>>>> The only one that became flesh was the son.
>>>>>>>> How?
>>>>>>>> 1 Timothy, 3:16 tells us that God was made manifest in the flesh.
>>>>>>>> God, (spirit,) manifested in the flesh, (son.)
>>>>>>>> The flesh revealed God's name, (Jesus.)
>>>>>>>> Colossians, 1:19 "and it pleased the Father, that in him should all
>>>>>>>> fullness dwell."
>>>>>>>> Colossians, 2:9. "And in him, (Jesus,) dwelleth all the fullness of
>>>>>>>> the Godhead bodily."
>>>>>>>> Jesus was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and now, he's
>>>>>>>> the Holy Ghost in regeneration.
>>>>>>>> Matthew 28:19 says for us to baptize in the name of the Father, and of
>>>>>>>> the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
>>>>>>>> Notice the word is "name," (not "names.")
>>>>>>>> I've just established that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy
>>>>>>>> Ghost, was Jesus.
>>>>>>>> That's why we baptize in Jesus's name, (Acts, 2:38.)
>>>>>>>> Everyone was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Lord Jesus, the
>>>>>>>> Lord," never, "Father Son and Holy Ghost."
>>>>>>>> That didn't start, until 325 A.D.
>>>>>>>> Read Acts, 2:38, Acts, 8:16, Acts, 10, Acts, 19:1/6.
>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 4/29/11, Alan Wheeler <awheeler65 at windstream.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Jeanette and everyone,
>>>>>>>>> Let me share a couple of sections from the set of fundamental beliefs
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Seventh-day Adventist church, which I am going to be joinging soon.
>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>> clearly, using only the bible, explains what happens after we die, and
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> humanity is judged. I know it's a lot of scripture to look at, but if
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> all look, you'll see the truth of it.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 26. Death and Resurrection:
>>>>>>>>> The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant
>>>>>>>>> eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious
>>>>>>>>> state
>>>>>>>>> for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected
>>>>>>>>> righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to
>>>>>>>>> meet
>>>>>>>>> their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the
>>>>>>>>> unrighteous,
>>>>>>>>> will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16;
>>>>>>>>> Eccl.
>>>>>>>>> 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1
>>>>>>>>> Thess.
>>>>>>>>> 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
>>>>>>>>> The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in
>>>>>>>>> heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate,
>>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>> living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its
>>>>>>>>> close
>>>>>>>>> Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to
>>>>>>>>> earth.
>>>>>>>>> The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his
>>>>>>>>> angels
>>>>>>>>> will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and
>>>>>>>>> cleanse
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.
>>>>>>>>> (Rev.
>>>>>>>>> 20;
>>>>>>>>> 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Jeanette
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:22 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right
>>>>>>>>> way?-understanding others
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> everyone seems to want to talk about God's love but not about God's
>>>>>>>>> wrath
>>>>>>>>> against sin, it seems that it is all about us and not about a loving
>>>>>>>>> god
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> gives us a choice to choose His ways or not to, everything in life has
>>>>>>>>> consequences so what you are saying is there are no consequences to
>>>>>>>>> choosing
>>>>>>>>> a different way here on earth and if you don't like the after life you
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> you can change your mind, don't see that in the bible.
>>>>>>>>> as to whether folks are a child of God i kind of think it has to do
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> what your definition of child of God is, if you mean since God created
>>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>>> all then we are all his children, i suppose that is true.
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 7:33 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right
>>>>>>>>> way?
>>>>>>>>> -understanding others
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Joshua:
>>>>>>>>> are you suggesting that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are
>>>>>>>>> therefore not children of God?
>>>>>>>>> Is this not hypocritical?
>>>>>>>>> Does it not go against the image of the loving God Christians like to
>>>>>>>>> portray?
>>>>>>>>> For love is for all,
>>>>>>>>> love for some is not true love.
>>>>>>>>> Is that right?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Jorge, this is the same "new thought," "seeker sensitive," stuff, we
>>>>>>>>>> see in today's churches.
>>>>>>>>>> The Jews didn't accept Jesus, but the Bible is clear, that every knee
>>>>>>>>>> shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.
>>>>>>>>>> There's only one way to Heaven, and that's through Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>> There's no way around it.
>>>>>>>>>> The other religions aren't correct.
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the
>>>>>>>>>> Father, but by him.
>>>>>>>>>> That's what Jesus said.
>>>>>>>>>> He wasn't sent to Christians, because there weren't any Christians,
>>>>>>>>>> until Antioch.
>>>>>>>>>> The Bible says, that they were called Christians first, at Antioch.
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus was sent to the world, those who accept him are Christians.
>>>>>>>>>> What constitutes a true Christian?
>>>>>>>>>> Acts, 2:38 tells us where to begin our Christian walk.
>>>>>>>>>> "then Peter said unto them,
>>>>>>>>>> "Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus
>>>>>>>>>> Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of
>>>>>>>>>> the Holy Ghost."
>>>>>>>>>> There are 3 steps to salvation, according to Peter.
>>>>>>>>>> #1. Repentence, #2. Baptism in Jesus's name, and #3. Receiving the
>>>>>>>>>> Holy Ghost, with the initial sign of speaking in other tongues, as
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> Spirit gives utterance, (see Acts, 2:4.) If you're going to call
>>>>>>>>>> yourself a Christian, you need to start with the way the Apostles
>>>>>>>>>> did.
>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> There is no clear answer on what the "right" way is.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course for us Christians it is knowing Jesus, but the other
>>>>>>>>>>> religions have different perspectives.
>>>>>>>>>>> Take this theologians line:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Muhammad was sent to the Muslims, as Jesus was sent to the
>>>>>>>>>>> Christians, as Moses was sent to the jews."
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> What does this tell you?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if you realize the fact that the jews never accepted Jesus as
>>>>>>>>>>> Christus (greek for Christ), but just as one more teacher, so to
>>>>>>>>>>> speak, and that their main holiday to celebrate the glory of God is
>>>>>>>>>>> passover, in which God leads the Jewish nation out of Israel, and
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> fact that we celebrate our revelation from God, Easter, on the very
>>>>>>>>>>> week, it shows you that the right way isn't set in stone.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Because our 2 religions have 2 completely different revelations, one
>>>>>>>>>>> from Moses and one from Jesus, both who were messengers of God (and
>>>>>>>>>>> for Christians, Jesus is part of the holy trinity, which is God) In
>>>>>>>>>>> effect, both revelations were made by God on to us in different eras
>>>>>>>>>>> and in different forms.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Now add to that one more layer.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> In the gospel, Jesus says something very interesting after the first
>>>>>>>>>>> revelation of his passion to the 12 disciples. When Peter asks,
>>>>>>>>>>> "Master, why do the scribes say that Elisha must come first?"
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus replied "I assure you Elisha will come." then says ".but
>>>>>>>>>>> surely
>>>>>>>>>>> Elisha has already come, and man has done on to him what they will."
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> That part caught my attention. If you know your old testament, you
>>>>>>>>>>> know that Elisha, as known by the Christians, has already come. His
>>>>>>>>>>> book is written years before the new testament even begins.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> But. where and when and who is the Elisha that Jesus says will come?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I believe the answer is, and I hope that you take this with a
>>>>>>>>>>> theological point and not with bias, but I think it was a reference
>>>>>>>>>>> to the Muslim prophet Mohammed.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Is this not "unChristian?" you ask.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> My answer is this,
>>>>>>>>>>> God is the ultimate creator, and the ultimate power, all religions
>>>>>>>>>>> agree on this do they not?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Some may ask why Mohammed never appeared in the bible, or any of the
>>>>>>>>>>> later religious figures.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Simple answer.
>>>>>>>>>>> For each his own messenger was sent.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Signs in times of trouble.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> First came Moses, in the old testament. His people were inslaved in
>>>>>>>>>>> Egypt at the time. If you remember the old testament well, due to
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> writings of the time, the Hebrews are called "God's people" in the
>>>>>>>>>>> text. Without diving into too much detail, Moses saved the people of
>>>>>>>>>>> Israel, and led them not only out of Egypt, but set standards for
>>>>>>>>>>> them in a life in Israel, in accordance with the will of God.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Then came Jesus.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus appeared in a time where Israel was controlled by the Romans,
>>>>>>>>>>> and the religious leaders at the time were many times corrupt and
>>>>>>>>>>> power hungry.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Notice that his teachings brought on huge crowds, but soon after,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> at the birth of Christianity, the jews that had followed Jesus split
>>>>>>>>>>> into 2 groups.
>>>>>>>>>>> Those who called themselves Christians, and those who stuck to the
>>>>>>>>>>> original Torah.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Notice now the appearance of Mohammed.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> He, too, like Jesus, was born to a family of humble station. They
>>>>>>>>>>> were merchants. Soon he became well known for his honest business.
>>>>>>>>>>> When he turned 40, he had his first vision, threw the angel Jabril,
>>>>>>>>>>> known in English as Gabriel.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> He too, preached in a time when there was a lack of morals and
>>>>>>>>>>> values.
>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike Jesus, who preached to the Jews, who had been given previous
>>>>>>>>>>> commandments, the people of Mecca at the time were polytheists.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> And now consider my last example.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The Buddha.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This prince, born in one of the royal families of India, renounced
>>>>>>>>>>> all wealth, and lived in poverty before finding the middle path
>>>>>>>>>>> threw
>>>>>>>>>>> meditation.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> He too, stressed the same exact code of behavior as Jesus, as did
>>>>>>>>>>> Moses, as did Mohammed (peace be upon them all) but in different
>>>>>>>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I believe the right way is not a single religion, or a sect, it is a
>>>>>>>>>>> way of life.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> If you do kindness, be generous, and humble, despite whatever
>>>>>>>>>>> greatness you might reach, then you are, though perhaps unknown to
>>>>>>>>>>> you, obeying the same code that almost all religious figures have
>>>>>>>>>>> taught threw out the years.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> And now if I say that the right way is one, why different religions?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Simply a matter of understanding and language.
>>>>>>>>>>> My statement as far as that goes will be this:
>>>>>>>>>>> pick the faith not that your parents had, but that YOU have.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> That means,
>>>>>>>>>>> it doesn't matter what faith your parents had, but as long as it is
>>>>>>>>>>> something in which you are strong in faith, that is your true
>>>>>>>>>>> religion.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and remember no one else is better then oneself.
>>>>>>>>>>> Converting others to your religion is simply changing the language
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> a message that is already there--but I believe you should convert,
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>> long as you don't defame the name of God, or any of his messengers,
>>>>>>>>>>> no matter what their name may be.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> 62%40students.pccua.edu
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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>>>> 
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