[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
Jeanette
nettiecosp at yahoo.com
Sat Apr 30 03:29:15 UTC 2011
when we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior our love for him makes us want
to be like him. but those who do ot know him donot knw to be like him, they
are being good in themselves not because Christ lives in them, we are not to
judge for sure, but we are to watch the fruit of our fellow man, we are to
love everyone but we do not have to accept their teachings as truth in order
to love them. they can be wrong or missinformed and we still love them.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
To all,
One more thing and I promise I'll be done with this thread, for
good. It was said earlier that ethics don't get us in to heaven, and
I agree that noone would stand a chance without the grace of Christ
because we are all sinners. But our own ethics do matter, they are
integral to accepting Christ- it's not enough to merely say he's our
savior, we've been saved, and be done with it. Consider the
following. (and I'm just paraphrasing here, I don't know the Bible as
well as I ought to but I'm getting there slowly) Anyways- theswe are
just a few of the teachings of Christ from the Bible.
"judge not, that ye be not judged."
"forgive seventy times seven."
"do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
All of the ten commandments.
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
"love thy neighbor as thyself."
"if ye love me, keep my commandments."
"inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye
have done it unto me."
"when thou doest thine alms, do them in secret."
"What manner of men ought ye to be? Even as I am."
"love thine enemies, bless those that curse you, pray for those who
despitefully use you."
"go the extra mile." (this was in the context of being required, by
law, to carry the pack of a Roman centurian for 1 mile if you were
requested to do so--I'm probably off on the exact wording but you get
the point)
"render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."
"turn the other cheak."
"feed my lambs/feed my sheep." (said to Peter but definitely aplicable here)
the parable of the Good Samaritan.
The commandment to the rich man to sell all his possessions to the
poor and follow him.
I could go on for a long, long time. (well, actually, I
couldn;'t...but I know there are many more examples) But what do all
these quotes or familiar stories all have in common? They are all
commandments by Christ to behave a certain way, to do certain things,
to obey certain laws...in other words, Ethics! If all we had to do
was simply accept Christ in to our heart, be happy we were saved and
move on...why the hell would Christ spend so much time laying out such
a rigorous moral code for us to follow? If ethics don't play a part
in getting us to heaven, why did Christ spend so much time talking
about them? To me, we have to live the best life we know how to...and
of course we'll fall miserably short, but we have to try because
that's what allows Christ to come in and purify our hearts. We have
to live, to the best of our abilities, the ethics Christ gave us. I
know you all don't accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, but there
is a verse there that states, basically, "grace is sufficient for you,
after ye have done all that ye can do." (that's paraphrasing but it's
the message of the scripture) So...it's not enough to passively sit
by and let Christ save us- we have to, to the best of our ability,
make ourselves worthy to be saved. Of course we can't on our own-
Christ does all the saving, and no matter how good we are it wouldn't
be enough to get in to heaven without Christ's atonement. But we
still have to try and be good in order for Christ's sacrifice to have
any power in our lives. Otherwise, why would Christ devote so much of
his precious scriptures to teaching ethics?
God bless,
Kirt
On 4/29/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
> Jews and Muslems have been at war with each other, since the beginning.
> The Jews' God was Yahweh, and the Muslems worship Ala.
> Yahweh is the God of Isaac, (the Jews claim Isaac to be the father of
> the Jewish race.)
> Ishmael, (Isaac's half-brother,) is considered the father of the
> Arabic race, (Muslems.)
> They worship two separate gods.
> Yahweh, (to us,) is Jesus, because Jesus calls himself Yahweh, in
> John, 5, where he said, "Before Abraham was, I am."
> Yahweh semply means, I am.
> Ala is a named derived from the name of the moon god, worshiped by
> people in Muhammad's day.
> We, (Christians and Muslems,) do not both worship the same god.
> Christianity came out of Judaism, but Islam is its own separate religion.
> It's no secret, that Muslems hate Jews.
> In Arab countries, they teach the children to chant, "Arabs are
> beloved, Jews are dogs."
> They've fought, and fought.
> They will continue to fight, until Jesus comes again.
> I'm on the side of Israel, and I always will be.
> I know, that some Muslems are peaceful, but I'm refering to the
> popular Islam, that's talked about on the news.
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 4/29/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well I'm not muslim so I won't defend them,
>> but from what I understand he's the same name for our God.
>>
>>
>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 9:16 PM, Jeanette wrote:
>>
>>> the old testament tells us ther is only one true God, as i understand it
>>> ala is not the one true god, he is a different god, sorry but that is
>>> what
>>> i understand.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>> To: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>; "Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>> faith and religion" <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 4:31 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>
>>>
>>> Very interesting.
>>> Despite my firm belief in Jesus Christ, and the Catholic faith, I have
>>> also talked to Muslim friends of mine and we agree on many things.
>>>
>>> Interestingly enough, Islam itself is a word that means, submission to
>>> Allah (God), so it makes sense that Jesus was considered a good Muslim
>>> however, according to what I've read,
>>> there is no mention of Jesus after his birth in the Quran.
>>> Please let me know if you can tell me the versus in which his life and
>>> passion are referenced.
>>>
>>> I am a firm believer in Christianity but like to research other
>>> religions
>>> as I believe this simply makes my understanding overall of other
>>> people's
>>> religions and customs much better and thereby strengthens me as a
>>> believer.
>>>
>>> Jorge
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 11:32 PM, qubit wrote:
>>>
>>>> Greetings again --
>>>> This list has been active lately...
>>>>
>>>> I am not muslim, as defined by any of the branches of Islam, but I have
>>>> a
>>>> brother who has read considerably the muslim writings including several
>>>> translations of the Quran, and I also have read a little in the Quran
>>>> out
>>>> of
>>>> curiosity.
>>>> I have read only through Surah 2, but it is true there are many good
>>>> and
>>>> peaceful teachings in this part of the Quran. However, like the
>>>> Bible,
>>>> there are also harsh parts of the Quran that lead many to justify
>>>> violent
>>>> behavior such as is in the news. This however, is also true of the
>>>> Bible
>>>> --
>>>> there are parts of the Bible that can be twisted to justify a lot of
>>>> unchristian behaviors. (I'm not equating the Bible and the Quran --
>>>> they
>>>> are very different.)
>>>> Your statement that muslims don't believe Jesus is Christ actually is
>>>> false.
>>>> According to my brother, the Quran calls Jesus the Messiah, and in fact
>>>> includes an interesting telling of Mary and the virgin conception of
>>>> Jesus,
>>>> plus a discussion of his life and crucifixion. I'm afraid i don't know
>>>> what
>>>> it says about the resurrection, but according to my brother, the Quran
>>>> refers to Jesus and his disciples as true muslims, because of their
>>>> willingness to submit to God (Allah).
>>>> My brother even compares the English translations to the original
>>>> Arabic,
>>>> and has discovers some interesting information -- such as the word
>>>> usually
>>>> translated as "Christians" in the English translations of the Quran, is
>>>> actually the name of a group of Arabs in Muhammad's time who had a
>>>> belief
>>>> about Christianity that Muhammad disagreed with. It has nothing to do
>>>> with
>>>> modern Christians, or even the Christians that fought in the crusades,
>>>> which
>>>> was centuries after Muhammad's time.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, my brother also discovered inconsistencies in the various
>>>> English
>>>> translations of the Quran -- one English version clashed in meaning
>>>> with
>>>> the
>>>> others.
>>>> He also claims that if you look at the original Arabic, the verses in
>>>> question agree with verses of the New Testament that discuss the
>>>> mission
>>>> of
>>>> Jesus and related things. However, what he has found is that Christian
>>>> and
>>>> Muslim scholars believe the Bible and Quran clash, and when he tries to
>>>> point out the verses in question, he is met with mixed reactions. The
>>>> Christians he talks to find his discovery interesting, while the
>>>> muslims
>>>> almost always get hot under the collar. He has even been escorted out
>>>> of
>>>> places and asked not to come back...
>>>>
>>>> One verse in the Quran I found a little incredulous was Sura 2:256
>>>> "There is no compulsion in religion..."
>>>> I guess it surprised me.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the rambling.
>>>> Funny thing: even with all the negative reaction my brother gets from
>>>> most
>>>> muslims who listen to him, he was told by one man that he thought my
>>>> brother
>>>> was a true muslim. My brother took it as a compliment.
>>>>
>>>> I do want to say one thing more:
>>>> i agree that there is some truth in all world religions, but that
>>>> doesn't
>>>> mean all of their writings are correct or agree.
>>>> I don't think you can put 2 religions -- like Christianity and Buddhism
>>>> --
>>>> side by side and find they are really the same.
>>>> An example -- I once read the book "The Power of Myth", which tried to
>>>> tie
>>>> all the world's myths and religious beliefs together by looking for
>>>> similarities. I also saw the author interviewed on PBS. It sounded
>>>> interested, until I got to the part where Buddhism and Christianity
>>>> were
>>>> discussed. The author actually tried to equate the missions of Buddha
>>>> and
>>>> Jesus.
>>>> I knew a lot about Christianity, and not so much about Buddhism, but
>>>> the
>>>> discussion didn't feel right. I read a little more about Buddha and my
>>>> conclusion were that while Jesus and Buddha were compassionate
>>>> spiritual
>>>> leaders, their missions were quite different. I also didn't feel like
>>>> it
>>>> was appropriate to call Jesus a myth. The author also misrepresented
>>>> or
>>>> took liberties with the story told in scripture, which I felt he
>>>> couldn't
>>>> do. I also felt that if he couldn't get Christianity right, which I did
>>>> have
>>>> a knowledge about, how could I trust what he had to say about the other
>>>> religions? I would rather research themby talking to persons who live
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, have a nice evening.
>>>> --le
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 8:25 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alan:
>>>> With all due respect,
>>>> you have to be aware the bible uses complex langauge structures.
>>>> For example: have you ever tried reading Revelations?
>>>> You should, but it is a very complicated book to understand.
>>>>
>>>> What he means by the Father threw me is simple:
>>>> if you know him, you know the father.
>>>>
>>>> But… and this is an important point,
>>>> it is a greater crime to not believe in God, then it is to not
>>>> recognize
>>>> Jesus.
>>>>
>>>> After all, muslims don't recognize Jesus as the Christ and yet their
>>>> codes
>>>> of ethics stand amongst one of the strictest, and strongest I've seen.
>>>>
>>>> There are many muslims I know who would put so-called Christians to
>>>> shae
>>>> with their devotion to God.
>>>>
>>>> Are you saying they are bound to hell?
>>>>
>>>> Not attacking you, just wondering.
>>>>
>>>> Jorge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:04 PM, Alan Wheeler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, it is Christ, Himself, who said He is the only way:
>>>>> John 14
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have
>>>>> told
>>>>> you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
>>>>> 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take
>>>>> you
>>>>> to
>>>>> be with me that you also may be where I am.
>>>>> 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
>>>>> 5 ¶Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so
>>>>> how
>>>>> can
>>>>> we know the way?”
>>>>> 6 ¶Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
>>>>> comes
>>>>> to
>>>>> the Father except through me.
>>>>> 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now
>>>>> on,
>>>>> you
>>>>> do know him and have seen him.”
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Take note, Jesus didn't say "I am *A* way, *A* truth, and *A* life,"
>>>>> but
>>>>> rather said "I am *THE* way, *THE* truth, and *THE* life." Use of the
>>>>> word
>>>>> "the" in that context denotes singleness or exclusivity. So, Jesus
>>>>> was,
>>>>> in
>>>>> essence saying he was the only way, the only truth, and the only life.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Jorge Paez
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:11 PM
>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>
>>>>> Christ is who we Christians say is the only way.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think its a bigger crime not to believe in God, E.G., atheists, then
>>>>> not
>>>>> to believe in Christ.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Jeanette wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked
>>>>>> forward
>>>>>> to
>>>>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal
>>>>> himself to. but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is
>>>>> my
>>>>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they will
>>>>> go
>>>>> to
>>>>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ made
>>>>> on
>>>>> the
>>>>> cross. if being good is all it takes then you are saying there is no
>>>>> need
>>>>> for hell either.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because
>>>>>>> they
>>>>> did not know him?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but
>>>>>>> for
>>>>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know
>>>>>>> Christ,
>>>>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
>>>>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either
>>>>>>>> never heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was. Will
>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>> like Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go
>>>>>>>> to hell simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>> here?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> any literature other than the bible is not God inspired there
>>>>>>>>> fore is not reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone,
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> what i believe, if you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven then how
>>>>>>>>> to you explain the need for Him to sacrafice His life for our
>>>>>>>>> sins?
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God, only
>>>>>>>>>> those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or
>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory
>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>> been written by Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember
>>>>>>>>>> his name prior to this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic
>>>>>>>>>> church, and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by
>>>>>>>>>> the way, I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable
>>>>>>>>>> source.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.
>>>>>>>>>>> Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans,
>>>>>>>>>>> Atheists, Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a
>>>>>>>>>>> spirit child of god.
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>>>>> christianity." I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an
>>>>>>>>>>> idea advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall
>>>>>>>>>>> the name) that basically all people living christlike lives have
>>>>>>>>>>> access to Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet. As a
>>>>>>>>>>> Mormon, a central part of my faith is that, some day, either in
>>>>>>>>>>> this life or the next, all people will have the chance to hear
>>>>>>>>>>> the gospel of Christ. Were this not true, God would not be a
>>>>>>>>>>> fair and just God because, throughout the ages, there have been
>>>>>>>>>>> billions of people who literally never even heard of Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>> Christ. I can't believe in a God who would damn someone merely
>>>>>>>>>>> because they were never exposed to Christ in mortal life, or
>>>>>>>>>>> because they chose to live by their original faith instead,
>>>>>>>>>>> without really understanding what Christ offers. So, I believe
>>>>>>>>>>> that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people
>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth,
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> will all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his
>>>>>>>>>>> commandments to the best of their abilities before being saved,
>>>>>>>>>>> though. I'm just rambling...but basically I believe that, just
>>>>>>>>>>> because someone dies without faith in Christ, I don't believe
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>> are ultimately condemned to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text, you
>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for
>>>>>>>>>>>> "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But then how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their
>>>>>>>>>>>> views on Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread. Please
>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand I'm not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to debate anyone here, and I'm not trying to impose my own
>>>>>>>>>>>>> faith on anyone. But, with that disclaimer out of the way, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to answer one point that was made earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> identify themselves as Christian. I think I understand why,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> although I whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately boils down to your definition of a Christian. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only Christians are those who worship the Trinity as God,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and confess the Nycene creed, then I suppose we Mormons aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians. But, by that definition, you're excluding some of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most Christian people among us. Consider Joshua Lester, a
>>>>> oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three
>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate, distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> world for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point. If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively Trinitarians, what defines a Christian? To me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's obvious. Anyone who accepts Christ as lord and savior and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> relies exclusively upon him as the only means of salvation is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian. For us as Mormons Jesus is not just a good moral
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide for an excelent life. He isn't just an inspired teacher
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or prophet- he is a member of the godhead, our redemer and,
>>>>> ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eternity. In my book, if you agree with that, you're a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian. So despite the numerous and significant
>>>>>>>>>>>>> theological
>>>>>>>>>>>>> differences between Catholics and Protestants and Mormons and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox Christians, we all have that
>>>>> common ground. Are Mormons Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian? I answer, emphatically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed at some of the things they said. However, in this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case there is no need for embarrassment. i felt that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information I gave in my reply would be good for the whole
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o> but it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list. My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 other major religions of the world (Judaism and Islam),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we're currently studying the reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that time that all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible for the "common people" to read, while the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start reading the bible in common languages, believing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the bible should be read and understood by each and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier. Thanks for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers about the Majesterium and Tradition. So, if I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding right, it is your belief that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman Catholic church is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply clarifying the revelation already given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation of God. If I'm understanding right, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> biggest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disagreement between Catholics and Protestants is a matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of interpretation of the Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "correct" way to look at scripture, while in Protestant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christianity it is more open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation? I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization, but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. You said something to the effect of believing Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smith's vissions were genuine, but not valid. So...for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, as a Catholic, do you think he was misguided?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far? Inspired by the devil? I won't get offended, I want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your honest opinion and I'm not going to take it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally I'm convinced God has inspired them all. That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't mean I believe with everything every faith claims,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I see the hand of God throughout the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you. Are you familiar with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the idea of anonimous Christianity? If so, what are your
>>>>> thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious
>>>>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see that it's motto is "peace, love, service". I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that my work of evangelization is to spread these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and discussions on here. I'm pretty sure it's one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few worthwhile distractions in life. But I am curious,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I definitely don't mean to offend, if there are any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-christian regular readers of this mailinglist? I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this thread to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in talking with and learning from people from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other faiths. If that's you, and you wouldn't mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking, would you please email me off-list? I won't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director GodTouches Digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rg To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/j
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ohn%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director GodTouches Digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ministry,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/ki
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> putertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>> .crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/compu
>>>>>>>>>>> tertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettie
>>>>>>>>>> cosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.cr
>>>>>>>>> azydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computer
>>>>>>>> techjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecos
>>>>>>> p%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computerte
>>>>>> chjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>> dstream.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Faith-talk:
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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