[Faith-talk] One God, Three Persons

Fri Jun 3 20:34:10 UTC 2011

very well said for sure, jeanette
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rex Leslie Howard, Jr." <rex at littlelaw.com>
To: "'Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion'" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] One God, Three Persons


> Well I would never be contentious with regard to anyone's belief. I can
> speak what I believe and give examples and provide resources but that's
> where it ends. I believe that the most important aspect of Christianity is
> that we cannot save ourselves, Jesus came and died on the cross for our 
> sins
> that we might have eternal life. Jesus came to save the world and not to
> condemn the world so, if Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, what 
> makes
> me think I have a right to operate in condemnation of the world. This does
> not mean that I condone sinful behavior but it does mean that I understand
> we are all born into sin and we get out of spiritual death not by our 
> works
> (although our works represent faith) but by the works of Christ Jesus who
> makes salvation and eternal life possible.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 2:22 PM
> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] One God, Three Persons
>
> Rex,
>  Remind me never to get in a debate with you.  *grin*
>
> On 6/3/11, Rex Leslie Howard, Jr. <rex at littlelaw.com> wrote:
>> I think this is an interesting debate and it is interesting the different
>> positions that people take on this issue.
>>
>> Normally, I do not get caught up in debate over Christian theology but I
> did
>> want to provide some information on this discussion.
>>
>> I believe that in order to understand submission and subordination (we
>> submit to one another, we submit to the church, the church submits to 
>> God)
>> then we should try to understand the principle of the trinity.
>>
>> I believe firmly that there is one God represented in three.
>>
>> I listened to the video on YouTube but I cannot buy into that teaching.
>>
>> Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
> let
>> them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air,
> and
>> over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that
>> creeps on the earth."
>>
>>
>>
>> a. Let Us make man in Our image: The use of the plural (Let Us . . . in
> Our
>> image, according to Our likeness) is consistent with the idea that there
> is
>> One God in three Persons, what we know as the Trinity.
>>
>>
>>
>> i. Leupold does a good job showing that the plurality of let Us make
> cannot
>> be merely the plurality of royalty, nor can it be God speaking with and 
>> to
>> the angels. It is an indicator of the Trinity, though not clearly spelled
>> out.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://enduringword.com/commentaries/0101.htm
>> Question: "What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?"
>>
>> Answer: The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the
> Trinity
>> is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The
>> Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully
>> understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are;
>> therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The
>> Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the 
>> Holy
>> Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though
> we
>> can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons
> of
>> the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the
> human
>> mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is
> not
>> based on the teachings of the Bible.
>>
>> The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is
>> not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this
>> subject that the word "Trinity" is not found in Scripture. This is a term
>> that is used to attempt to describe the triune God-three coexistent,
>> co-eternal Persons who make up God. Of real importance is that the 
>> concept
>> represented by the word "Trinity" does exist in Scripture. The following
> is
>> what God's Word says about the Trinity:
>>
>> 1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 
>> 1
>> Timothy 2:5).
>>
>> 2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7;
>> Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In
>> Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26,
> 3:22,
>> 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. The word
> "Elohim"
>> and the pronoun "us" are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew
>> language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the
>> Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word
> for
>> "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.
>>
>> In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to
> the
>> Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see
> that
>> it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus'
>> baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God 
>> the
>> Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19
>> and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the
>> Trinity.
>>
>> 3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in
> various
>> passages. In the Old Testament, "LORD" is distinguished from "Lord"
> (Genesis
>> 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4).
> The
>> Spirit is distinguished from the "LORD" (Numbers 27:18) and from "God"
>> (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm
>> 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father
>> about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that
>> Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit.
> Consider
>> also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father.
>> Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the
>> Trinity-the Father.
>>
>> 4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; 
>> Romans
>> 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians
> 2:9;
>> Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1
> Corinthians
>> 3:16).
>>
>> 5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the
> Holy
>> Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is
> subordinate
>> to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the
> deity
>> of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite
> minds
>> cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see 
>> Luke
>> 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit
>> see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.
>>
>> 6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father
> is
>> the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6;
> Revelation
>> 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and
>> Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these
>> things.
>>
>> The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: 
>> the
>> creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3;
>> Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 
>> 11:27;
>> Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John
>> 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as
>> His agent.
>>
>> The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works:
>> creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm
>> 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21);
>> salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah
> 61:1;
>> Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the
> Holy
>> Spirit.
>>
>> There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity.
>> However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The
> egg
>> (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg,
>> not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the 
>> apple
>> are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
> are
>> not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat
>> better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid,
>> vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are
> not
>> forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give
> us
>> a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An
> infinite
>> God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.
>>
>> The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the
> entire
>> history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity 
>> are
>> clearly presented in God's Word, some of the side issues are not as
>> explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit
> is
>> God-but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the
> Trinity.
>> Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and
>> non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with 
>> our
>> finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of
>> God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. "Oh, the depth of the
>> riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his 
>> judgments,
>> and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or
> who
>> has been his counselor?" (Romans 11:33-34).
>>
>> Recommended Resource: Making Sense of the Trinity: Three Crucial 
>> Questions
>> by Millard Erickson and The Forgotten Trinity by James White.
>> http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Tom Vos
>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 1:41 PM
>> To: faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] One God, Three Persons
>>
>> I realize that this list includes people from many faith traditions, but 
>> I
>> wish to make clear that the Christian Church has been overwhelmingly
> united
>> in affirming the Trinity.
>>
>> The idea that Jesus once existed as Father, then as the Man, Jesus, and
> now
>> is manifest as the Holy Spirit is a teaching the church rejected early on
> in
>> its history as heresy.
>> Of course you can find people in the history of the early church who
>> believed this teaching, called modalism, but that doesn't mean it was the
>> predominant teaching of the church.
>> Nor as the church coming up with its own concoction.   This teaching of
> the
>> Trinity arose out of a very careful study of Scripture and has stood the
>> test of time.
>>
>> I found the following website that contains a helpful examination of the
>> biblical evidence.
>> Blessings,
>> Tom
>> http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a63.htm
>>
>>
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