[Faith-talk] Lord's Day Thought for May 5, 2013

[Kirt Manwaring]

Paul,
  I honestly don't want to misrepresent you or quote you out of
context, but I have to say that doctrine is reprehensible to me and I
could never believe it in good conscience.  What I seem to be hearing
from you is that God's willingness to aleviate human suffering is
based solely upon our willingness to acknowledge him.  That seems to
imply that, to God, suffering is only intolerable if it is happening
to his chosen people...but perhaps it's not so bad, or maybe it's even
desirable, if it's happening to others.  If God is all-powerful (he
can do anything he wants), I think we have to logically asume that
everything in the world happens with his direct approval.  How can I
believe in a God who sanctions torture, barbarism, cruelty, genocide,
rape and slavery of any member of our human family, regardless of
religious affiliation?
  Again, I'm not trying to argue for the sake of argument.  I know
most of you Christians are kind and ethical people; I'm just honestly
confounded by these issues you brought up in your article, and I'm
genuinely curious how you as believers deal with them.  That's all.

On 5/6/13, Paul <oilofgladness47 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Haven't checked all my emails as of yet, because my computer temporarily
> malfunctioned.  It should be kept in mind that, in the public arena at least
>
> and even in our political lives nationally, God is put on the "back burner,"
>
> virtually forgotten officially, but not in the hearts and minds of the
> believers.  So, because of that, God has forgotten us as a nation, but not
> as individuals.  So, he allowed the events of 9/11 to take place because of
>
> that.  There is a place somewhere in the Scriptures that addresses this very
>
> topic, that is, if we forget God, God will forget us.  Can't recall where it
>
> was, but it's there somewhere.  Paul
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 3:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Lord's Day Thought for May 5, 2013
>
>
>> The last thing I want to do is start a theological debate, as I know
>> being Agnostic and not religious at all I'm in the minority here.
>> Even so, you asked for thoughts, so you will have mine.
>>  If God is really as horified by human suffering as this article
>> claims, and it's certainly a nice thought, why doesn't he do anything
>> to stop it?  If he is truly omniscient and all-powerful, and if his
>> heart was genuinely "the first to be broken" after the horific tragedy
>> of 9/11, why did he let it happen?  Certainly an omnipotent,
>> all-loving and all-knowledgeable God would have known about it even
>> before it happened and, if he is truly as "turned" by suffering as
>> this article claims, would have been able to prevent it.
>> To me, it seems that the only logical answers to this question are
>> that God is actually okay with this horific suffering because it
>> accomplishes some grander purpose, God is evil, God has good
>> intentions but limited power, or there is, in fact, no God at all.
>> Though each of these answers is logically valid, technically speaking,
>> only the final one seems to answer the question for me.  If God were
>> truly evil, I think the world would be a much more terrible place than
>> it really is.  Maybe I'm just arrogant, but I can't see how horific
>> tragedies like 9/11 or the holocaust might accomplish any good, even
>> from an eternal prospective.  I think a good god with limited power
>> wouldn't claim omnipotence...so why should I believe in God at all?
>>  I'm honestly not trying to spark an argument here.  I respect each
>> of you as people and certainly I don't mean to offend, I'm just
>> curious how you are able to square yourseles with this concept that
>> seems so problematic to me.  I'm doing my best to be civil and polite;
>> I'm trying to treat you all with the kind of respect I want to be
>> shown, especially because these are obviously sensitive issues which
>> can become emotionally charged very fast.  Again, I'm not looking to
>> start a fight, I'm just curious how each of you, as believers, will
>> answer these obviously difficult questions.  I'm motivated by
>> curiosity, not contention.  :)
>>  Warmest regards,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/5/13, Sheila Leigland <sleigland at bresnan.net> wrote:
>>> hi interesting article. Important observations about Christ as well as
>>> what our response should be.
>>> On 5/5/2013 5:41 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>> Well folks, for those of us who are Mexican-American as far as our
>>>> family
>>>> background is concerned, today is your day, so I'll just say to you,
>>>> "Muy
>>>> buena suetre por sua pais, y viva Mexico!" In English that is rendered
>>>> as
>>>> follows:  "Very good luck for your contry (of family origin) and long
>>>> live
>>>> Mexico!" My Spanish is a bit rusty, but I hope you get my point.  Now I
>>>> know that the situation in that nation presently isn't so good what
>>>> with
>>>> government corruption and other things, but, in looking at the bigger
>>>> picture, I can see God working among the citizens of that country as
>>>> well
>>>> as the indigenous peoples that presently live there.  So, from that
>>>> perspective, happy cinco de Mayo!
>>>>
>>>> And now for today's article.  This was originally written by a lady by
>>>> the
>>>> name of Cheri Lynn Cowell, someone whom I know nothing about, but she
>>>> wrote an article that many of us can identify with, if not all of us.
>>>> The
>>>> title of her piece is "God's Response to Suffering--And Ours," rendered
>>>>
>>>> as
>>>> follows:
>>>>
>>>> Jesus had a visceral reaction to the suffering He saw.
>>>>
>>>> We've all experienced or witnessed pain and suffering.  We hear the
>>>> phrase
>>>> from well-meaning Christians, "God never gives us more than we can
>>>> handle," or they say, "God must have something great planned for you if
>>>>
>>>> He
>>>> allows this much suffering in your life." Although these are meant to
>>>> comfort, I find them anything but.  I am also troubled by the theology
>>>> these statements represent, for they do not square with the God I know.
>>>>
>>>> When the World Trade Center towers fell on September 11, 2001, some
>>>> well-meaning Christians pointed fingers.  During my church's prayer
>>>> service that week, my minister said many people asked him, "Where was
>>>> God
>>>> when those towers fell?" He responded by saying God was with every
>>>> single
>>>> person.  God was in each stairwell, inside each plane, and under each
>>>> desk.  Then as tears streamed down his face he told us, "It was God's
>>>> heart that was the first to break that morning." Those words pierced my
>>>> soul and resonated within my spirit, for this is the God I know.
>>>>
>>>> To understand God's response to our suffering we need look no further
>>>> than
>>>> Jesus.  Jesus is often referred to as the image of God, "the exact
>>>> representation of His being" (Hebrews 1:3).  When Philip asked Jesus to
>>>> show them the Father, Jesus responded, "Anyone who has seen Me has seen
>>>> the Father" (John 14:9).  If Jesus responds a certain way to our
>>>> suffering, we can be certain it is how the Father is also responding.
>>>> Let's look at how Jesus responded to the sufferings He encountered.
>>>>
>>>> Jesus Heals a Leper
>>>> One of the most dramatic and telling events in the Bible is the healing
>>>>
>>>> of
>>>> a man who had leprosy.  Lepers were social and physical outcasts.
>>>> Leprosy
>>>> was a disease that ate away at the flesh, leaving gaping and oozing
>>>> holes
>>>> in the skin.  In Jesus' day, those who contracted this terrible skin
>>>> disease were banned from society.  Even the leper's family was forced
>>>> to
>>>> forsake him.
>>>>
>>>> To add insult to injury, if anyone came near, lepers were required to
>>>> shout, "Unclean, unclean," because by simply touching a leper a person
>>>> would be declared unclean.  According to Jewish laws, these unclean
>>>> Jews
>>>> were unable to partake of the temple rituals, and therefore, God's
>>>> blessings.
>>>>
>>>> On this day, Jesus had been traveling the hillsides of Galilee
>>>> preaching
>>>> and healing when a man with leprosy approached.  He had heard about
>>>> Jesus'
>>>> healing powers and and fell on his knees before Him pleading, "If you
>>>> are
>>>> willing, you can make me clean" (Mark 1:40).
>>>>
>>>> The next sentence is a startling one.  A literal reading of the
>>>> original
>>>> Greek text tells us Jesus looked on the man and his situation, and his
>>>> bowels turned.  The word has been translated _compassion or _pity, but
>>>> such translations appear to miss the mark.  Jesus didn't simply have
>>>> pity.
>>>>  His heart didn't just "go out" to the man with leprosy, as we would
>>>> say
>>>> today.  No, Jesus had a visceral reaction.  His bowels churned--not at
>>>> the
>>>> man or the open sores covering his body, but at the condition he was
>>>> forced to be in.  This was not what God had intended for His children.
>>>>
>>>> This suffering was so far outside of His will that Jesus reacted
>>>> physically at the sight.  Then Jesus turned to the man and touched him.
>>>> It's hard to imagine Jesus could have done anything more compassionate
>>>> than touch a man who had been untouched, unloved and, in a sense,
>>>> unseen.
>>>> Jesus said, "I am willing, be clean" (v. 41).
>>>>
>>>> I can imagine the tenderness of that touch.  I can see tears welling in
>>>> Jesus' eyes as He said those words.  And I can feel the mixture of
>>>> shock,
>>>> awe and horror in the hearts of the crowd.  They must have been asking
>>>> themselves, "Hasn't this man sinned? Isn't this the life God willed for
>>>> this leper? Who is Jesus to invalidate God's punishment?" If such
>>>> questions were asked, Jesus ignored them and focused on the man and his
>>>> needs.
>>>>
>>>> Jesus Heals a Blind Man
>>>> In the book of John we see Jesus again traveling with His disciples,
>>>> when
>>>> they come upon a man who had been blind from birth.  His disciples
>>>> asked,
>>>> "Teacher, why was this man born blind? Was it because he or his parents
>>>> sinned?" (John 9:2, CEV).
>>>>
>>>> Jesus knew this was the wrong question, so he reoriented the
>>>> conversation
>>>> to the proper view.  "No, it wasn't," Jesus answered.  "But because of
>>>> his
>>>> blindness, you will see God work a miracle for him" (9:3).
>>>>
>>>> Jesus emphatically denied this man or his parents were to blame for his
>>>> blindness.  After this stern denial, Jesus turned to the real need--to
>>>> heal the man--and he used the healing as an opportunity to show God's
>>>> glory.
>>>>
>>>> Questions
>>>> Habakkuk, a prophet and the author of one of the last books of the Old
>>>> Testament, asked questions--a lot of questions.  He looked around and
>>>> saw
>>>> situations similar to those you and I see today.  He saw injustice and
>>>> suffering, and he wanted answers.  He believed God was a good and just
>>>> God, but Habakkuk had trouble squaring what he saw with who he knew God
>>>>
>>>> to
>>>> be.  His words still ring true for us today.
>>>>
>>>> "How long, O Lord, must I call for help, but You do not listen? Or cry
>>>> out
>>>> to you, Violence!, but you do not save? Why do you make me look at
>>>> injustice? Why do You tolerate wrong?" (Habakkuk 1:2, 3a, NIV).
>>>>
>>>> God answered Habakkuk's questions.  He told Habakkuk to write His
>>>> answer
>>>> plainly so that all would see and understand.  What did Habakkuk write?
>>>> God told Habakkuk He understood his need to ask questions.  And,
>>>> although
>>>> it may appear that evil had the upper hand, eventually, and at the
>>>> appointed time, evil would be conquered.
>>>>
>>>> After the Lord said His piece, Habakkuk offered his prayer of
>>>> thanksgiving
>>>> for a God who answers questions, who can be completely trusted, and
>>>> who,
>>>> in final victory, will vindicate the sufferings of His people.  God did
>>>> not explain the whys and hows of suffering, but He did promise that, in
>>>> the end, evil would be conquered.
>>>>
>>>> Habakkuk completed his prayer with this truth:  "Though the fig tree
>>>> does
>>>> not bud and there are no grapes on the vines, though the olive crops
>>>> fails
>>>> and the fields produce no food, though there are no sheep in the pen
>>>> and
>>>> no cattle in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will be
>>>> joyful
>>>> in God my Savior" (Habakkuk 3:1-18).
>>>>
>>>> The apostle Paul had undoubtedly read these words from Habakkuk.  From
>>>> his
>>>> prison cell he might have recalled them as words of comfort.  As he
>>>> wrote
>>>> his letter to the Corinthians, Habakkuk's prayer may have been in
>>>> Paul's
>>>> heart:  "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall
>>>> see face to face.  Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>> am fully known" (1 Corinthians 13:12, NIV, 1984).
>>>>
>>>> T
>>>> he truth is, one day we will be complete, our journey will end, and
>>>> suffering will be no more.  One day we will be returned to the glory
>>>> for
>>>> which we were formed.  "I consider that our present sufferings are not
>>>> worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us" (Romans
>>>> 8:18).
>>>>
>>>> God's Response and Ours
>>>> How does God respond to our sufferings? He is present with us.  And,
>>>> like
>>>> Jesus with the leper, God is displeased with the injustice He sees and
>>>> He
>>>> reaches out to touch us where we most need it.  Then, when others want
>>>> to
>>>> point and ask, "Who sinned?" Jesus emphatically says "No! Wrong
>>>> question."
>>>>
>>>> As followers of Christ we are invited to go and do likewise.  We are to
>>>>
>>>> be
>>>> present with those who suffer, our bowels ought to churn with the
>>>> injustice we see, and when well-meaning people point fingers and ask,
>>>> "Who
>>>> sinned?" we should join Jesus in saying, "Wrong question."
>>>>
>>>> Then, like Habakkuk, we wait expectantly for the day when God will
>>>> vindicate the sufferings of His people.  Because this is the God we
>>>> know.
>>>> This is the God we follow.
>>>>
>>>> Even if I didn't have a clue to the author of this article, I could
>>>> detect
>>>> a woman's touch and heart behind it, and I believe that I would be
>>>> found
>>>> to be correct.  For your sighted friends who may wish to read the
>>>> original
>>>> article in print, it was published in the November 4, 2012 issue of
>>>> "The
>>>> Lookout" magazine published by Standard Publishing Company of
>>>> Cincinnati,
>>>> Ohio.
>>>>
>>>> I'd really appreciate any comments on this article.  I don't personally
>>>> know Cheri Lynn Cowell, the author of this piece, but would like to
>>>> meet
>>>> her some day.  Thanks for any comments, positive or negative.
>>>>
>>>> And now may the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob just keep us safe,
>>>> individually and collectively, throughout this day and especially in
>>>> these
>>>> last days in which we live.  Your Christian friend and brother, Paul
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>>>
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