[Faith-talk] Lord's Day Thought for May 5, 2013
Greg Aikens
gpaikens at gmail.com
Tue May 7 00:53:59 UTC 2013
Hi kurt,
You do raise challenging but good questions. I'm sure you aware that you follow in the steps of centuries of agnostics when you pose your questions in this way.
I think the ideas of free will and redemption are vital in any discussion of the purpose of pain and suffering. I believe that God created man with free will as a vital part of who we are. God created us to be in a genuine loving relationship with him. For us to truly love him, the possibility that we could do something other than love him needed to exist as a real possibility. He could have made it so that humans have no choice but love him and choose good, but in doing so he would not have created free beings, but slaves or robots of a sort who only chose good. In fact, the bible teaches that Adam and Eve in the end did choose evil, leading to the breaking of creation, and the beginning of pain and suffering as we know it.
(I know that not all Christian groups believe in free will, but I do. I also believe that the bible supports predestination, but the relationship between these two is a side track from our main conversation.)
In creating beings who could genuinely enter in loving relationships with him, he also created beings who could reject him and choose evil. You may disagree that this trade-off was worth it, but God seems to think that it was. I'm just not sure how you could have free beings without the real possibility that they will misuse their freedom.
The piece that helps me deal with this better is the idea of redemption. That even though God has allowed evil to enter the world, whether for reasons we understand/agree with or not, from the beginning to the end of the book he enacts a plan to deal with this evil. Immediately after the fall, in Genesis 3 God promises that one of the descendants of Adam and Eve will crush the head of the serpent. These promises continue through Abraham, to the nation of Israel, and are ultimately fulfilled in the coming of Jesus Christ, who atones for the sin of humanity by offering himself as a sinless sacrifice. Admittedly, human suffering did not end with the coming of Christ, but I believe that as humans are freed from the bondage of sin and are again able to choose good, the coming of Christ marks a turning point.
For me, these ideas help explain the function of suffering on a general or universal level. God allowed the real possibility for evil to exist in order to create free beings. He allows it to continue because he chooses not to violate the free will he has given us. Instead he has enacted a plan to redeem the world's suffering, either on this earth or at the end of time. God's power is of such a kind that instead of eliminating all opposition through force of will, he is able to use seemingly weak and poor circumstances to bring about his will. The crucifixion of Christ is the prime example of this concept, but you find it expounded throughout the new testament.
These ideas are perhaps less effective in handling questions of individual suffering. However, I believe others on this list have offered answers to those kinds of questions.
I invite question an dialogue, either on or off list. Thanks for your questions and your care to express your desire not to offend.
Happy truth seeking,
Greg
On May 6, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Julie,
> Thanks for the response. I am curious though how you understand
> that "evil power" (Satan/Lucifer, Iblis if you're Muslim, take your
> pick), in relation to God. If I understand my Bible, God created
> everything and everyone, even the Devil. Of course, being omniscient,
> God would've known that Lucifer would "fall" and become the author of
> evil, even before God created him. In that case, I fail to understand
> how your God can truly despise suffering and evil since he would have
> to be responsible (either directly or inderectly, through natural
> causes or through Satan, whom he created knowing full well what he
> would become). Since God knew Satan would become the author of evil
> before it happened, and since he had all power and knowledge to
> prevent this suffering, why is it still here if he truly despises it?
> If there is some eternal purpose which makes pain and evil "good" in
> the end, what is it?
>
> On 5/6/13, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I think Kurt brings up some interesting points. As I understand part
>> of the reason for all the evil in the world is that there is an evil
>> opposite to God. Most call it the devil. He is the tempter and the
>> one who works against our good, loving God. I suppose some would call
>> this the good verses evil idea. I think that God sees all things, and
>> I trust Him, though it can be hard at times, but I do not believe that
>> He only protects those who believe in Him. We were all created in His
>> image, and we can be used for His glory in this world. My vocal coach
>> and I were just talking about the composers who composed beautiful
>> music for worship, even though they did not believe in God themselves.
>> I'm straying a bit off topic here, but the point is that only God
>> knows our hearts. This is why I don't think He would cause
>> individuals harm simply because they don't believe in Him. I'd be
>> interested to see that passage in the Bible that Paul is referencing,
>> not because I don't believe you, but I want to hear interpretations of
>> it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/6/13, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Paul,
>>> I honestly don't want to misrepresent you or quote you out of
>>> context, but I have to say that doctrine is reprehensible to me and I
>>> could never believe it in good conscience. What I seem to be hearing
>>> from you is that God's willingness to aleviate human suffering is
>>> based solely upon our willingness to acknowledge him. That seems to
>>> imply that, to God, suffering is only intolerable if it is happening
>>> to his chosen people...but perhaps it's not so bad, or maybe it's even
>>> desirable, if it's happening to others. If God is all-powerful (he
>>> can do anything he wants), I think we have to logically asume that
>>> everything in the world happens with his direct approval. How can I
>>> believe in a God who sanctions torture, barbarism, cruelty, genocide,
>>> rape and slavery of any member of our human family, regardless of
>>> religious affiliation?
>>> Again, I'm not trying to argue for the sake of argument. I know
>>> most of you Christians are kind and ethical people; I'm just honestly
>>> confounded by these issues you brought up in your article, and I'm
>>> genuinely curious how you as believers deal with them. That's all.
>>>
>>> On 5/6/13, Paul <oilofgladness47 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Haven't checked all my emails as of yet, because my computer temporarily
>>>> malfunctioned. It should be kept in mind that, in the public arena at
>>>> least
>>>>
>>>> and even in our political lives nationally, God is put on the "back
>>>> burner,"
>>>>
>>>> virtually forgotten officially, but not in the hearts and minds of the
>>>> believers. So, because of that, God has forgotten us as a nation, but
>>>> not
>>>> as individuals. So, he allowed the events of 9/11 to take place because
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> that. There is a place somewhere in the Scriptures that addresses this
>>>> very
>>>>
>>>> topic, that is, if we forget God, God will forget us. Can't recall
>>>> where
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> was, but it's there somewhere. Paul
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 3:03 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Lord's Day Thought for May 5, 2013
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The last thing I want to do is start a theological debate, as I know
>>>>> being Agnostic and not religious at all I'm in the minority here.
>>>>> Even so, you asked for thoughts, so you will have mine.
>>>>> If God is really as horified by human suffering as this article
>>>>> claims, and it's certainly a nice thought, why doesn't he do anything
>>>>> to stop it? If he is truly omniscient and all-powerful, and if his
>>>>> heart was genuinely "the first to be broken" after the horific tragedy
>>>>> of 9/11, why did he let it happen? Certainly an omnipotent,
>>>>> all-loving and all-knowledgeable God would have known about it even
>>>>> before it happened and, if he is truly as "turned" by suffering as
>>>>> this article claims, would have been able to prevent it.
>>>>> To me, it seems that the only logical answers to this question are
>>>>> that God is actually okay with this horific suffering because it
>>>>> accomplishes some grander purpose, God is evil, God has good
>>>>> intentions but limited power, or there is, in fact, no God at all.
>>>>> Though each of these answers is logically valid, technically speaking,
>>>>> only the final one seems to answer the question for me. If God were
>>>>> truly evil, I think the world would be a much more terrible place than
>>>>> it really is. Maybe I'm just arrogant, but I can't see how horific
>>>>> tragedies like 9/11 or the holocaust might accomplish any good, even
>>>>> from an eternal prospective. I think a good god with limited power
>>>>> wouldn't claim omnipotence...so why should I believe in God at all?
>>>>> I'm honestly not trying to spark an argument here. I respect each
>>>>> of you as people and certainly I don't mean to offend, I'm just
>>>>> curious how you are able to square yourseles with this concept that
>>>>> seems so problematic to me. I'm doing my best to be civil and polite;
>>>>> I'm trying to treat you all with the kind of respect I want to be
>>>>> shown, especially because these are obviously sensitive issues which
>>>>> can become emotionally charged very fast. Again, I'm not looking to
>>>>> start a fight, I'm just curious how each of you, as believers, will
>>>>> answer these obviously difficult questions. I'm motivated by
>>>>> curiosity, not contention. :)
>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/5/13, Sheila Leigland <sleigland at bresnan.net> wrote:
>>>>>> hi interesting article. Important observations about Christ as well as
>>>>>> what our response should be.
>>>>>> On 5/5/2013 5:41 PM, Paul wrote:
>>>>>>> Well folks, for those of us who are Mexican-American as far as our
>>>>>>> family
>>>>>>> background is concerned, today is your day, so I'll just say to you,
>>>>>>> "Muy
>>>>>>> buena suetre por sua pais, y viva Mexico!" In English that is
>>>>>>> rendered
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> follows: "Very good luck for your contry (of family origin) and long
>>>>>>> live
>>>>>>> Mexico!" My Spanish is a bit rusty, but I hope you get my point. Now
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> know that the situation in that nation presently isn't so good what
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> government corruption and other things, but, in looking at the bigger
>>>>>>> picture, I can see God working among the citizens of that country as
>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>> as the indigenous peoples that presently live there. So, from that
>>>>>>> perspective, happy cinco de Mayo!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And now for today's article. This was originally written by a lady
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> name of Cheri Lynn Cowell, someone whom I know nothing about, but she
>>>>>>> wrote an article that many of us can identify with, if not all of us.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> title of her piece is "God's Response to Suffering--And Ours,"
>>>>>>> rendered
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> follows:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jesus had a visceral reaction to the suffering He saw.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've all experienced or witnessed pain and suffering. We hear the
>>>>>>> phrase
>>>>>>> from well-meaning Christians, "God never gives us more than we can
>>>>>>> handle," or they say, "God must have something great planned for you
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>> allows this much suffering in your life." Although these are meant to
>>>>>>> comfort, I find them anything but. I am also troubled by the
>>>>>>> theology
>>>>>>> these statements represent, for they do not square with the God I
>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the World Trade Center towers fell on September 11, 2001, some
>>>>>>> well-meaning Christians pointed fingers. During my church's prayer
>>>>>>> service that week, my minister said many people asked him, "Where was
>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>> when those towers fell?" He responded by saying God was with every
>>>>>>> single
>>>>>>> person. God was in each stairwell, inside each plane, and under each
>>>>>>> desk. Then as tears streamed down his face he told us, "It was God's
>>>>>>> heart that was the first to break that morning." Those words pierced
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> soul and resonated within my spirit, for this is the God I know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To understand God's response to our suffering we need look no further
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> Jesus. Jesus is often referred to as the image of God, "the exact
>>>>>>> representation of His being" (Hebrews 1:3). When Philip asked Jesus
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> show them the Father, Jesus responded, "Anyone who has seen Me has
>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>> the Father" (John 14:9). If Jesus responds a certain way to our
>>>>>>> suffering, we can be certain it is how the Father is also responding.
>>>>>>> Let's look at how Jesus responded to the sufferings He encountered.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jesus Heals a Leper
>>>>>>> One of the most dramatic and telling events in the Bible is the
>>>>>>> healing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> a man who had leprosy. Lepers were social and physical outcasts.
>>>>>>> Leprosy
>>>>>>> was a disease that ate away at the flesh, leaving gaping and oozing
>>>>>>> holes
>>>>>>> in the skin. In Jesus' day, those who contracted this terrible skin
>>>>>>> disease were banned from society. Even the leper's family was forced
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> forsake him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To add insult to injury, if anyone came near, lepers were required to
>>>>>>> shout, "Unclean, unclean," because by simply touching a leper a
>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>> would be declared unclean. According to Jewish laws, these unclean
>>>>>>> Jews
>>>>>>> were unable to partake of the temple rituals, and therefore, God's
>>>>>>> blessings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On this day, Jesus had been traveling the hillsides of Galilee
>>>>>>> preaching
>>>>>>> and healing when a man with leprosy approached. He had heard about
>>>>>>> Jesus'
>>>>>>> healing powers and and fell on his knees before Him pleading, "If you
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> willing, you can make me clean" (Mark 1:40).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The next sentence is a startling one. A literal reading of the
>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>> Greek text tells us Jesus looked on the man and his situation, and
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> bowels turned. The word has been translated _compassion or _pity,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> such translations appear to miss the mark. Jesus didn't simply have
>>>>>>> pity.
>>>>>>> His heart didn't just "go out" to the man with leprosy, as we would
>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>> today. No, Jesus had a visceral reaction. His bowels churned--not
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> man or the open sores covering his body, but at the condition he was
>>>>>>> forced to be in. This was not what God had intended for His
>>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This suffering was so far outside of His will that Jesus reacted
>>>>>>> physically at the sight. Then Jesus turned to the man and touched
>>>>>>> him.
>>>>>>> It's hard to imagine Jesus could have done anything more
>>>>>>> compassionate
>>>>>>> than touch a man who had been untouched, unloved and, in a sense,
>>>>>>> unseen.
>>>>>>> Jesus said, "I am willing, be clean" (v. 41).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can imagine the tenderness of that touch. I can see tears welling
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> Jesus' eyes as He said those words. And I can feel the mixture of
>>>>>>> shock,
>>>>>>> awe and horror in the hearts of the crowd. They must have been
>>>>>>> asking
>>>>>>> themselves, "Hasn't this man sinned? Isn't this the life God willed
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> this leper? Who is Jesus to invalidate God's punishment?" If such
>>>>>>> questions were asked, Jesus ignored them and focused on the man and
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> needs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jesus Heals a Blind Man
>>>>>>> In the book of John we see Jesus again traveling with His disciples,
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> they come upon a man who had been blind from birth. His disciples
>>>>>>> asked,
>>>>>>> "Teacher, why was this man born blind? Was it because he or his
>>>>>>> parents
>>>>>>> sinned?" (John 9:2, CEV).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jesus knew this was the wrong question, so he reoriented the
>>>>>>> conversation
>>>>>>> to the proper view. "No, it wasn't," Jesus answered. "But because
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> blindness, you will see God work a miracle for him" (9:3).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jesus emphatically denied this man or his parents were to blame for
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> blindness. After this stern denial, Jesus turned to the real
>>>>>>> need--to
>>>>>>> heal the man--and he used the healing as an opportunity to show God's
>>>>>>> glory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Questions
>>>>>>> Habakkuk, a prophet and the author of one of the last books of the
>>>>>>> Old
>>>>>>> Testament, asked questions--a lot of questions. He looked around and
>>>>>>> saw
>>>>>>> situations similar to those you and I see today. He saw injustice
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> suffering, and he wanted answers. He believed God was a good and
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> God, but Habakkuk had trouble squaring what he saw with who he knew
>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be. His words still ring true for us today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "How long, O Lord, must I call for help, but You do not listen? Or
>>>>>>> cry
>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>> to you, Violence!, but you do not save? Why do you make me look at
>>>>>>> injustice? Why do You tolerate wrong?" (Habakkuk 1:2, 3a, NIV).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> God answered Habakkuk's questions. He told Habakkuk to write His
>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>> plainly so that all would see and understand. What did Habakkuk
>>>>>>> write?
>>>>>>> God told Habakkuk He understood his need to ask questions. And,
>>>>>>> although
>>>>>>> it may appear that evil had the upper hand, eventually, and at the
>>>>>>> appointed time, evil would be conquered.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After the Lord said His piece, Habakkuk offered his prayer of
>>>>>>> thanksgiving
>>>>>>> for a God who answers questions, who can be completely trusted, and
>>>>>>> who,
>>>>>>> in final victory, will vindicate the sufferings of His people. God
>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>> not explain the whys and hows of suffering, but He did promise that,
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the end, evil would be conquered.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Habakkuk completed his prayer with this truth: "Though the fig tree
>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>> not bud and there are no grapes on the vines, though the olive crops
>>>>>>> fails
>>>>>>> and the fields produce no food, though there are no sheep in the pen
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> no cattle in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will be
>>>>>>> joyful
>>>>>>> in God my Savior" (Habakkuk 3:1-18).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The apostle Paul had undoubtedly read these words from Habakkuk.
>>>>>>> From
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> prison cell he might have recalled them as words of comfort. As he
>>>>>>> wrote
>>>>>>> his letter to the Corinthians, Habakkuk's prayer may have been in
>>>>>>> Paul's
>>>>>>> heart: "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we
>>>>>>> shall
>>>>>>> see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> am fully known" (1 Corinthians 13:12, NIV, 1984).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> T
>>>>>>> he truth is, one day we will be complete, our journey will end, and
>>>>>>> suffering will be no more. One day we will be returned to the glory
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> which we were formed. "I consider that our present sufferings are
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us" (Romans
>>>>>>> 8:18).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> God's Response and Ours
>>>>>>> How does God respond to our sufferings? He is present with us. And,
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> Jesus with the leper, God is displeased with the injustice He sees
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>> reaches out to touch us where we most need it. Then, when others
>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> point and ask, "Who sinned?" Jesus emphatically says "No! Wrong
>>>>>>> question."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As followers of Christ we are invited to go and do likewise. We are
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> present with those who suffer, our bowels ought to churn with the
>>>>>>> injustice we see, and when well-meaning people point fingers and ask,
>>>>>>> "Who
>>>>>>> sinned?" we should join Jesus in saying, "Wrong question."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then, like Habakkuk, we wait expectantly for the day when God will
>>>>>>> vindicate the sufferings of His people. Because this is the God we
>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>> This is the God we follow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even if I didn't have a clue to the author of this article, I could
>>>>>>> detect
>>>>>>> a woman's touch and heart behind it, and I believe that I would be
>>>>>>> found
>>>>>>> to be correct. For your sighted friends who may wish to read the
>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>> article in print, it was published in the November 4, 2012 issue of
>>>>>>> "The
>>>>>>> Lookout" magazine published by Standard Publishing Company of
>>>>>>> Cincinnati,
>>>>>>> Ohio.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd really appreciate any comments on this article. I don't
>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>> know Cheri Lynn Cowell, the author of this piece, but would like to
>>>>>>> meet
>>>>>>> her some day. Thanks for any comments, positive or negative.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And now may the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob just keep us safe,
>>>>>>> individually and collectively, throughout this day and especially in
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> last days in which we live. Your Christian friend and brother, Paul
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Julie McG
>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National
>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary,
>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President,
>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008
>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>> life."
>> John 3:16
>>
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