[Faith-talk] once saved always saved????

Thu May 9 05:49:11 UTC 2013

Timothy,
  I'm not offended, I just don't agree.  If I'm going to be condemned
for choosing reason over faith, if I'm going to be sentenced because
my heart tells me being kind and fair to my fellow man is more
important than appeasing a god who probably doesn't exist anyhow, then
so be it.  If God is truly so cruel as to send anybody into
everlasting punishment, punishment which, to me, is so out of
proportion with anything anybody can possibly do in mortality...if God
is truly that jealous and capricious, I want nothing to do with him.
Even people as vile as Hitler (who used the Bible to justify many of
the most depraved things he did), Stalin and Sadam Husein don't
deserve to burn in agony forever...a few hundred trillion years,
perhaps, but endlessly?  I can't think of any crime one can commit in
mortality that merrits such a punishment.
  By the way, if you want to research the Bible more thoroughly, a
study of Numbers and Deutoronomy, not to mention Judges and Joshua,
might be in order.  Read those books, pay special attention to
chapters like Numbers 31 and you'll understand why I have a hard time
believing in a God who says "thou shalt not murder" on the one hand
and then turns around and asks his people to slaughter entire nations
wholesale, women and children included.  Or, in other instances, the
women are kept as slaves for the Israelite soldiers.  Peace on earth
and good will to men, indeed.
  Warmest regards,
Kirt

On 5/8/13, Timothy Clark Music <timothyclarkmusic at me.com> wrote:
> kirt, i agree with you.
>  if a child dies before accepting christ according to you linda and like
> kirt i mean no offence here but according to you if that child dies before
> knowing about jesus they're going to hell. after all, once saved always
> saved. well, once lost always lost write?
>  again, i mean no offence but that's how i feel.
>  let me tell you something. if you are a child say 2 weeks old and you die,
> you're going to heaven. you aren't at the age where you can deny or accept
> christ.
>  you're saved by grace.
>  if i accept christ at the age of 10 i'm saved by grace but, if you refuse
> to believe you're going to hell. period. no acception.
>  john 3 18 is clear on that when it says, He that believeth on him is not
> condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath
> not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
>
>  verse 19 clairifies this when it tells us,  And this is the condemnation,
> that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,
> because their deeds were evil. look at john 3 36 where it tells us, He that
> believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the
> Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
>  Paul tells us that those who have never heard of the law are not imputed
> sin under the law. in romans 2 14:16 it tells us,  For when the Gentiles,
> which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these,
> having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  Which shew the work of the
> law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and
> their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
>  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ
> according to my gospel. and, in james 3 verse 1 it tells us, Let not many of
> you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a
> stricter judgment. ( another words, those who know the gospel will be under
> a gudgement that's more harsh as they knew the gospel and may and or may not
> have keep it's words and laws. as we can guide and or lead people a stray.
>  "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in
> accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not
> know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And
> from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom
> they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. ( that's found in
> link Luke 12:47-48
>
>  now, please don't be offended by the research i've done to come up with the
> things i'm saying here. it's all biblical and i hope you'll take the time to
> look it up. kirt and linda, please realize that i've done my research and i
> hope you aren't offended by my findings. if you are, take it up with the
> lord. he will judge accordingly i'm sure.
>
>
>
>
>
> god bless
>  Timothy
>  Your friend in the music industry
>  bandcamp
>  http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>  twitter
>  @timothyclark13
>  Skype
>  djtimothy1
>  facebooks
>  http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>  http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>  reverbnation
>  http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>  youtube
>  http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>  phone
>  7244011224
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 9, 2013, at 12:56 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>
>> Linda,
>>  What of those billions upon billions who never heard the name
>> "jesus" in their lives?  Does God condemn them for those circumstances
>> which, if you believe, you would have to concede he is responsible
>> for?  That hardly seems infinitely just, much less infinitely
>> merciful, to me.
>>  And what of people like me who, seeing numerous contradictions and
>> inconsistancies in the Bible, not to mention the double standard of
>> morality which seems to make itself known after even a cursory reading
>> of the Old Testament, decide we can't honestly and in good faith
>> believe such a book?  Are we condemned to the fire forever, with no
>> chance of an end to our punishment (even after billions and billions
>> of years), while professing Christians, some of them more sinful than
>> us, are sanctified and justified for salvation?  I suppose, by your
>> definition, there is absolutely no hope for me unless I sincerely
>> devote myself to a faith which, and I'm only speaking for myself here
>> and meaning as little offense as possible, seems irrational and not
>> the most effective path to me being an ethical and moral person.
>>  I guess I can take at least a modicum of solace because, if you're
>> right, I'll at least have some good company in my eternal damnation.
>> If I'm going to be burning in agony forever, at least I'll be able to
>> share my torture with the likes of Gandhi, the Buddha, Albert
>> Einstein, Socrates, Thomas Jefferson (before you say he was a
>> Christian, read the Jefferson Bible and I imagine it will change your
>> mind), Confucious and many more of humanity's best and brightest, both
>> morally and intelectually.  That's at least some comfort, isn't it?
>>  In closing, I'd just like to reiterate my desire for civil and
>> reasonable dialogue.  I'll confess this last message was passionate
>> because, I won't lie, this conversation strikes a nerve near and dear
>> to my heart.  If you object to the tone I took in this e-mail, I'd
>> politely ask you to read this whole conversation before accusing me of
>> such; I'd submit that, though I have tried to make my case with
>> passion and furvor, I have not been any more intense than Timothy or
>> Linda in stating my opinion.  I stand by what I said, but I don't mean
>> any insult or offense.
>>  Warmest regards,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/8/13, Timothy Clark Music <timothyclarkmusic at me.com> wrote:
>>> that's true but,  as a child someone might believe that and they may
>>> have
>>> professed faith in jesus christ but as an adult things are often
>>> different.
>>> you do things you shouldn't do. what about people like that? will god
>>> save
>>> them? when we sin in our prayers we should say lord i know i've sinned
>>> please forgive me of the sins i've committed today and will commit in
>>> the
>>> future. it's not something you have to do but wouldn't you rather know
>>> that
>>> you've forgiven asked for forgiveness every night and that your slate is
>>> clean.
>>> god bless
>>> Timothy
>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>> bandcamp
>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>> twitter
>>> @timothyclark13
>>> Skype
>>> djtimothy1
>>> facebooks
>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>> reverbnation
>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>> youtube
>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>> phone
>>> 7244011224
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 8, 2013, at 11:49 PM, Linda Mentink wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jesus said, My sheep hear My voice, and I know them. No one will be
>>>> able
>>>> to snatch them out of My hand. The Bible doesn't say that if we sin, we
>>>> will not be saved. The Bible doesn't say that if we backslide, we will
>>>> not
>>>> be saved. We will all be judged, and all God's children will spend
>>>> eternity with Him in heaven. Those who are not God's children, who are
>>>> counting on their good works and their outstanding lives, and who think
>>>> there is more than one path to heaven, will spend eternity in hell,
>>>> where
>>>> they will burn forever! Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.
>>>> Anything added to what Christ has done cheapens His death and
>>>> resurrection.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 10:38 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>>>> i'll agree with you as to the fact that if you're actually a
>>>>> christian
>>>>> that you regularly wouldn't do those things but in this time and in
>>>>> these
>>>>> last days where we find ourselves people profess faith and turn around
>>>>> and do those things so, do you think people like that will still be
>>>>> saved.
>>>>> i for one don't think they will be. thoughts anyone?
>>>>> god bless
>>>>> Timothy
>>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>>> bandcamp
>>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>>> twitter
>>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>>> Skype
>>>>> djtimothy1
>>>>> facebooks
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>>> reverbnation
>>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>>> youtube
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>>> phone
>>>>> 7244011224
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 8, 2013, at 11:33 PM, Linda Mentink wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Genuine Christians will not do those things. God may hide His face
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> us for awhile, but He will never take away anything He has given us
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> blessings unless He has something better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 10:29 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>>>>>> the question laid out before us tonight is this. once saved, are you
>>>>>>> always saved.
>>>>>>> if you accept god into your life and you serve the lord faithfully
>>>>>>> then i would have to say that you would be rewarded in life eternal.
>>>>>>> but, if you are saved as a child and you murder or rape someone or
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> something sinister will you still be saved?
>>>>>>> i personally don't think so.
>>>>>>> god can gain favor with you but god can also take his blessings
>>>>>>> away.
>>>>>>> i think if you dishonor god and you don't repent you'll be judged
>>>>>>> accordingly.
>>>>>>> i'm just wandering, what are your thoughts on this subject?
>>>>>>> i for one think you can lose the favor and the blessings of god.
>>>>>>> god bless
>>>>>>> Timothy
>>>>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>>>>> bandcamp
>>>>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>>>>> twitter
>>>>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>>>>> Skype
>>>>>>> djtimothy1
>>>>>>> facebooks
>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>>>>> reverbnation
>>>>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>> youtube
>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>> 7244011224
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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