[Faith-talk] once saved always saved????
Timothy Clark Music
timothyclarkmusic at me.com
Sat May 11 17:03:38 UTC 2013
danyell, remember the key word is repent. repent of your sins. that's the key. and that being said, i agree with you on this one.
god bless
Timothy
Your friend in the music industry
bandcamp
http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
twitter
@timothyclark13
Skype
djtimothy1
facebooks
http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
reverbnation
http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
youtube
http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
phone
7244011224
On May 11, 2013, at 12:20 PM, Danielle Antoine wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Well, I struggled with this very question many years ago and heard
> first a sermon stating you can absolutely lose your salvation and be
> blazin forever! that certainly didn't sit well with me. Lo, and
> behold, about two weeks later I heard the opposing view. I sure wish I
> had the Scriptures to put forth but I don't. With that being said, I
> do believe that if we repent and turn away from sin as stated in 2
> chronicles, that god certainly does forgive and reinstate us by His
> grace. What we have to remember is that sin is sin is sin and there
> are no levels of it or degrees....just a Heaven or Hell depending on
> life choices and how they are resolved.
> Just like for those who have sex before or outside of marriage, if
> they make a choice to abstain and confess their sins to god, they are
> forgiven and restored with the understanding that the action is not
> repeated. reference the woman at the well or the one about to be
> stoned to death in town Square!
>
> And what about those who are miserable grumpy and intractable all
> there lives and turn to god on there death bed I am convinced they are
> welcomed because the bible does say that God doesn't even want one to
> be lost.
>
> Also, who are the judges anyway? Because the Bible says that god will
> separate the wheat from the tare on Judgment Day. And it also says
> that we are to judge not lest we are prepared to be judged with the
> same judgment. I will boldly state that as i see it the argument is
> really between the Old testament camp and those in the New testament.
> As I have been able to tell, it's usually those who are rooted in the
> Old testament that want to resolve things in a judgmental, vengeful
> way. this is history really to understand the past which helped to
> shape the New covenant; the New testament which we should go by.
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> Danielle
>
>
> On 5/11/13, Timothy Clark Music <timothyclarkmusic at me.com> wrote:
>> kirt.
>> i can't have all the answers but on the subject of murder.
>> those murders and such were done in the name of god.
>> the thing i always ask myself is, where those really done by god or did
>> they just put that in the bible.
>> now, as to the laws and such, you're forgetting about what's known as the
>> new covenute and basically that took place after jesus died and rose from
>> the dead.
>> i'll admit it's a bit mind boggling and honestly i respect your views and
>> can even see where you are coming from. but, after the new covenute we no
>> longer see any of this so, in conclusion, i believe a lot of the old
>> testament was the laws of moses yes but the laws of god as well. again, the
>> new covenute is as such that we no longer need to follow the laws say in
>> lavidicus.
>> god bless
>> Timothy
>> Your friend in the music industry
>> bandcamp
>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>> twitter
>> @timothyclark13
>> Skype
>> djtimothy1
>> facebooks
>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>> reverbnation
>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>> youtube
>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>> phone
>> 7244011224
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 11, 2013, at 2:53 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>
>>> Linda,
>>> I appreciate your honest response to my concerns. I hope you
>>> understand that I'm not sharing my opinions merely for the sake of
>>> contention; all these questions come from careful study of the Bible
>>> and, in fact, years of unanswered prayers. I won't claim to be as
>>> literate in the Bible as some of you doubtless are but I can honestly
>>> say I know it fairly well and, yes, I've seen inconsistancies and
>>> contradictions a plenty. And I'm not merely looking to criticize
>>> anything I possibly can just for the sake of argument; I feel my
>>> concerns are legitimate and justified.
>>> Furthermore, while in Christian Theology the New Testament is
>>> obviously the centerpiece of the Bible, the Old Testament is
>>> definitely an integral part. And I'm genuinely curious how you can
>>> read Jehovah command his people "thou shalt not murder" and then turn
>>> around a couple books later and command his people to slaughter entire
>>> nations, women and children included. This is directly sanctioned and
>>> commanded by Jehovah numerous times in the old testament; feel free to
>>> look up Deuteronomy chapter 7, numbers 21, numbers 25, numbers 31,
>>> Deuteronomy chapter 20 verses 10-17, and numerous other instances
>>> where God is clearly telling the Israelites to blatantly defy his
>>> earlier commandment not to murder. If you don't see that as a double
>>> standard, and I'll say as respectfully as I can that it boggles my
>>> mind how you can not, can you at least understand how I might be a
>>> sincere ethical person and view it that way?
>>> Now, as to your point about the original greek and hebrew. First
>>> off, especially where the new testament i concerned, I don't think we
>>> have the "original" anything. Sure, as Greg pointed out in an earlier
>>> post, we have enough fragments of manuscripts that we can reliably
>>> piece together, for the most part, most of the New Testament; I'll
>>> freely admit this is not my area of expertise, but I believe that's
>>> especially true of the Paulene epistles. Anyways I'm afraid I'm
>>> getting sidetracked...but even from the greek and Hebrew we have,
>>> which is far from "original" the translations become more problematic.
>>> For example, in many places where you have the word "servant" in the
>>> KJV, the greek word is more accurately rendered as "slave." I'm
>>> afraid if I keep going too much longer on this train of thought I'll
>>> be terribly out of my depth, but I think I have enough of a layman's
>>> understanding of the Greek and Hebrew versions of the Bible to know
>>> that these huge moral dilemmas can't all be put to bed by saying "the
>>> real meaning got lost in translation somewhere."
>>> As for burning in hell forever...you might be surprised to find I
>>> wasn't being flippant in the slightest. At least, I wasn't intending
>>> to be. The idea that good people can be condemned forever while some
>>> people who aren't nearly so good (I'm not lumping all Christians in
>>> that category, because most of you seem to be decent people) can go to
>>> heaven forever really rubs me the wrong way, for some reason. And,
>>> for the record it was Timothy, not I,who brought up infant baptism. I
>>> was refering to the group of people, for all I know the majority of
>>> Earth's population throughout history, who never even heard the name
>>> "jesus" in their mortal lives or, if they did hear the name, never had
>>> a clue what the Bible claims his message was. I can respect the idea,
>>> held by some Christians, obviously more troubled by this than me since
>>> it is part of their own belief system, that those who never knew
>>> Jesus' message in mortality, through circumstances outside their
>>> control, will have the chance to accept him post mortum. Call it
>>> antiBiblical if you like, many Christians who know the Bible like the
>>> back of their hands will probably disagree with you, but if the Bible
>>> message is that anybody who didn't accept Christ in mortal life, even
>>> those who never even had the chance because they lived long and happy
>>> lives in China or the Inca Empire or something, is damned
>>> forever...then I passionately, respectfully but unabashedly an
>>> unashamedly disagree with the Bible.
>>> Well, folks, that is all. I find myself incredibly tired and
>>> mentally drained, but I appreciate your patience and forbearance. I
>>> acknowledge that my views put me in the minority on this list, and
>>> that's definitely putting it mildly. I'd like to think that airing
>>> out my views here, instead of on some Atheist or Antitheist listserve,
>>> is a mark in favor of my sincerity and desire to genuinely find the
>>> truth. After all, if I'm honestly wrong, the people who share my
>>> false notions aren't very likely to prove it to me. To that end, I
>>> post my opinions here not to insult, or to start a fight, but to be
>>> sincerely questioned and challenged. If I'm in error, I invite any of
>>> you to logically and rationally point out my mistakes. I've talked to
>>> many Christians who are much smarter than me and they haven't been
>>> able to do it, I've thoroughly studied most of the Bible, especially
>>> the Gospels, and that's just left me with more questions than
>>> answers...but maybe I'm missing something, and I'm open to anyone who
>>> can honestly and irrefutably prove me wrong, though I'm skeptical of
>>> it happening.
>>> Anyways, warmest regards and best wishes to you all. I am mindful
>>> of those of us going through hard times and dealing with incredibly
>>> powerful adversity; you are definitely in my thoughts.
>>> Fondly and cordially,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 5/10/13, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi Curt,
>>>>
>>>> I don't have all the answers, and the Bible doesn't tell us
>>>> absolutely everything. What I have said in my posts is not my
>>>> opinion, but it's what the Bible clearly says, which I
>>>> whole-heartedly believe. And, I don't believe that I said little
>>>> children would go to hell if they didn't heed God's call before they
>>>> die. There is an age when they can and do understand, some as early
>>>> as 4 years old. God is sovereign, and it's all up to Him.
>>>>
>>>> As to you personally, yes, at this point, you will spend eternity in
>>>> hell. Please don't be flippant about having lots of company with the
>>>> people you know. You'll all be in constant torment, from which there
>>>> will be no relief. You shouldn't take that lightly; it's not a joking
>>>> matter. And, don't base your opinions on the Old Testament only. Just
>>>> because there was much immorality in those days, that doesn't mean
>>>> that God condoned it. He didn't then, and He doesn't now. Read the
>>>> New Testament as well, and forget your preconceived false notions.
>>>> The Bible is not full of double standards, contradictions or
>>>> inconsistencies. Sometimes it's a matter of translation. The English
>>>> language does not always have words to properly say what the original
>>>> Hebrew or Greek does. Read it with an open mind and a willingness to
>>>> learn from it and accept its teachings. Accept the whole Bible, not
>>>> just the parts that you agree with. Ask God in prayer to show Himself
>>>> to you through His word, if you really want to know. God knows
>>>> whether you are truly seeking or just looking for things to criticize
>>>> and be disgruntled about.
>>>>
>>>> Blessings,
>>>>
>>>> Linda
>>>>
>>>> At 11:56 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>>>> Linda,
>>>>> What of those billions upon billions who never heard the name
>>>>> "jesus" in their lives? Does God condemn them for those circumstances
>>>>> which, if you believe, you would have to concede he is responsible
>>>>> for? That hardly seems infinitely just, much less infinitely
>>>>> merciful, to me.
>>>>> And what of people like me who, seeing numerous contradictions and
>>>>> inconsistancies in the Bible, not to mention the double standard of
>>>>> morality which seems to make itself known after even a cursory reading
>>>>> of the Old Testament, decide we can't honestly and in good faith
>>>>> believe such a book? Are we condemned to the fire forever, with no
>>>>> chance of an end to our punishment (even after billions and billions
>>>>> of years), while professing Christians, some of them more sinful than
>>>>> us, are sanctified and justified for salvation? I suppose, by your
>>>>> definition, there is absolutely no hope for me unless I sincerely
>>>>> devote myself to a faith which, and I'm only speaking for myself here
>>>>> and meaning as little offense as possible, seems irrational and not
>>>>> the most effective path to me being an ethical and moral person.
>>>>> I guess I can take at least a modicum of solace because, if you're
>>>>> right, I'll at least have some good company in my eternal damnation.
>>>>> If I'm going to be burning in agony forever, at least I'll be able to
>>>>> share my torture with the likes of Gandhi, the Buddha, Albert
>>>>> Einstein, Socrates, Thomas Jefferson (before you say he was a
>>>>> Christian, read the Jefferson Bible and I imagine it will change your
>>>>> mind), Confucious and many more of humanity's best and brightest, both
>>>>> morally and intelectually. That's at least some comfort, isn't it?
>>>>> In closing, I'd just like to reiterate my desire for civil and
>>>>> reasonable dialogue. I'll confess this last message was passionate
>>>>> because, I won't lie, this conversation strikes a nerve near and dear
>>>>> to my heart. If you object to the tone I took in this e-mail, I'd
>>>>> politely ask you to read this whole conversation before accusing me of
>>>>> such; I'd submit that, though I have tried to make my case with
>>>>> passion and furvor, I have not been any more intense than Timothy or
>>>>> Linda in stating my opinion. I stand by what I said, but I don't mean
>>>>> any insult or offense.
>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/8/13, Timothy Clark Music <timothyclarkmusic at me.com> wrote:
>>>>>> that's true but, as a child someone might believe that and they may
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> professed faith in jesus christ but as an adult things are often
>>>>>> different.
>>>>>> you do things you shouldn't do. what about people like that? will god
>>>>>> save
>>>>>> them? when we sin in our prayers we should say lord i know i've sinned
>>>>>> please forgive me of the sins i've committed today and will commit in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> future. it's not something you have to do but wouldn't you rather know
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> you've forgiven asked for forgiveness every night and that your slate
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> clean.
>>>>>> god bless
>>>>>> Timothy
>>>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>>>> bandcamp
>>>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>>>> twitter
>>>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>>>> Skype
>>>>>> djtimothy1
>>>>>> facebooks
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>>>> reverbnation
>>>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>> youtube
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>>>> phone
>>>>>> 7244011224
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 8, 2013, at 11:49 PM, Linda Mentink wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jesus said, My sheep hear My voice, and I know them. No one will be
>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>> to snatch them out of My hand. The Bible doesn't say that if we sin,
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> will not be saved. The Bible doesn't say that if we backslide, we
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> be saved. We will all be judged, and all God's children will spend
>>>>>>> eternity with Him in heaven. Those who are not God's children, who
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> counting on their good works and their outstanding lives, and who
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> there is more than one path to heaven, will spend eternity in hell,
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> they will burn forever! Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.
>>>>>>> Anything added to what Christ has done cheapens His death and
>>>>>>> resurrection.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 10:38 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>>>>>>> i'll agree with you as to the fact that if you're actually a
>>>>>>>> christian
>>>>>>>> that you regularly wouldn't do those things but in this time and in
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> last days where we find ourselves people profess faith and turn
>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>> and do those things so, do you think people like that will still be
>>>>>>>> saved.
>>>>>>>> i for one don't think they will be. thoughts anyone?
>>>>>>>> god bless
>>>>>>>> Timothy
>>>>>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>>>>>> bandcamp
>>>>>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>>>>>> twitter
>>>>>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>>>>>> Skype
>>>>>>>> djtimothy1
>>>>>>>> facebooks
>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>>>>>> reverbnation
>>>>>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>> youtube
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>>> 7244011224
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 8, 2013, at 11:33 PM, Linda Mentink wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Genuine Christians will not do those things. God may hide His face
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> us for awhile, but He will never take away anything He has given us
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> blessings unless He has something better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At 10:29 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> the question laid out before us tonight is this. once saved, are
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> always saved.
>>>>>>>>>> if you accept god into your life and you serve the lord faithfully
>>>>>>>>>> then i would have to say that you would be rewarded in life
>>>>>>>>>> eternal.
>>>>>>>>>> but, if you are saved as a child and you murder or rape someone or
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> something sinister will you still be saved?
>>>>>>>>>> i personally don't think so.
>>>>>>>>>> god can gain favor with you but god can also take his blessings
>>>>>>>>>> away.
>>>>>>>>>> i think if you dishonor god and you don't repent you'll be judged
>>>>>>>>>> accordingly.
>>>>>>>>>> i'm just wandering, what are your thoughts on this subject?
>>>>>>>>>> i for one think you can lose the favor and the blessings of god.
>>>>>>>>>> god bless
>>>>>>>>>> Timothy
>>>>>>>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>>>>>>>> bandcamp
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>>>>>>>> twitter
>>>>>>>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>>> Skype
>>>>>>>>>> djtimothy1
>>>>>>>>>> facebooks
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>>>>>>>> reverbnation
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>>> youtube
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>>>>> 7244011224
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timothyclarkmusic%40me.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timothyclarkmusic%40me.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mentink%40frontiernet.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timothyclarkmusic%40me.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/singingmywayin%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Faith-talk:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/timothyclarkmusic%40me.com
More information about the Faith-Talk
mailing list