[Faith-talk] once saved always saved????

[Kirt Manwaring]

I would be inclined to agree with you, were it not for the numerous
times that God directly commands the Israelites to slaughter a group
to the last man or, sometimes, take a portion of the population as
slaves.  The Old Testament has that directly from God's mouth and not
just from Moses; I'm too lazy to pull out references right now but
they're there and I'm happy to provide them if you're skeptical.
  Best,
Kirt

On 5/11/13, Timothy Clark Music <timothyclarkmusic at me.com> wrote:
> kurt, if the old testament is the laws of moses then couldn't it be argued
> that it wasn't displaying accurately the laws of god but the laws of mosis
> inspired by god?
> god bless
>  Timothy
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> On May 11, 2013, at 1:04 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>
>> Timothy,
>>  Thank goodness Christians aren't asked to follow the Law of Moses.
>> I'm sure I would've been stoned for blasphemy at least ten times over
>> by now, so of course that comes as a relief to me...  Still, as the
>> Psalmist so aptly put it, God is supposed to be the same "yesterday,
>> today and forever."  I don't have the reference to that offhand but
>> I'm sure you've heard it before.  That being the case, the God you
>> worship today is the same God who, and I'm not one to mince words,
>> mandated mass murder and slavery.  To me, those things are wrong, no
>> matter who is instituting them.  While the New Testament is meant to
>> fulfill the Law of Moses, it certainly doesn't erase it from history
>> and unless you go all Gnostic on me you'll have to concede that you
>> worship a God who, according to your own sacred text, mandated these
>> wanton acts of brutality that put Osama Bin Laden to shame.  If you
>> are willing to concede that these might have been "put into the Bible"
>> or "aren't really scripture", how are you supposed to know what is, in
>> fact, divinely inspired if simply being in the Bible isn't a reliable
>> measuring stick?
>>  Danielle,
>>  Very well said, but my question remains, as I see it, unanswered.
>> For one thing, I think there are absolutely degrees of sin and
>> separating people into only two camps, the sanctified and the sinful,
>> is an incredibly gross oversimplification of things.  Is cruel
>> premeditated murder, done Jody Arias style, not a much more severe sin
>> than, say, lying a little bit on your tax forms or having a lustful
>> thought about somebody else's spouse?  I would certainly say so; I'd
>> imagine most of us would agree that what Jody Arias did is much worse
>> than the two examples I just mentioned...yet, if left unsanctified
>> through Jesus, those three sins warrant the exact same _eternal_
>> punishment?  Heck, because my blasphemy is probably a sin too, unless
>> I change my ways and accept Christ as my lord and savior I'll get the
>> same penalty for my unbelief that Hitler or Stalin would get for their
>> mass genocide...how in the world is that supposed to make sense?
>> "well, you see, we aren't judged by works," might be your reply...but,
>> if so, what is the point of living a fair and ethical life in
>> mortality if Jesus will save us in the end anyhow only contingent on
>> our faith in him?
>>  Now, after that long and rambling post, I'm still left wondering:
>> what, my friend, is your belief about the countless masse of Humanity
>> who lived, for the most part contently enough, never even hearing the
>> name Jesus in their lives?  Are they damned because of circumstances
>> out of their control, or do you prefer to read the New Testament a
>> little more gently and liberally than that?
>>  Warmst and fondest regards,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/11/13, Danielle Antoine <singingmywayin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> Well, I struggled with this very question many years ago and heard
>>> first a sermon stating you can absolutely lose your salvation and be
>>> blazin forever! that certainly didn't sit well with me. Lo, and
>>> behold, about two weeks later I heard the opposing view. I sure wish I
>>> had the Scriptures to put forth but I don't. With that being said, I
>>> do believe that if we repent and turn away from sin as stated in 2
>>> chronicles, that god certainly does forgive and reinstate us by His
>>> grace. What we have to remember is that sin is sin is sin and there
>>> are no levels of it or degrees....just a Heaven or Hell depending on
>>> life choices and how they are resolved.
>>> Just like for those who have sex before or outside of marriage, if
>>> they make a choice to abstain and confess their sins to god, they are
>>> forgiven and restored with the understanding that the action is not
>>> repeated. reference the woman at the well or the one about to be
>>> stoned to death in town Square!
>>>
>>> And what about those who are miserable grumpy and intractable all
>>> there lives and turn to god on there death bed I am convinced they are
>>> welcomed because the bible does say that God doesn't even want one to
>>> be lost.
>>>
>>> Also, who are the judges anyway? Because the Bible says that god will
>>> separate the wheat from the tare on Judgment Day. And it also says
>>> that we are to judge not lest we are prepared to be judged with the
>>> same judgment. I will boldly state that as i see it the argument is
>>> really between the Old testament camp and those in the New testament.
>>> As I have been able to tell, it's usually those who are rooted in the
>>> Old testament that want to resolve things in a judgmental, vengeful
>>> way. this is history really to understand the past which helped to
>>> shape the New covenant; the New testament which we should go by.
>>>
>>> Just my two cents.
>>>
>>> Danielle
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/11/13, Timothy Clark Music <timothyclarkmusic at me.com> wrote:
>>>> kirt.
>>>> i can't have all the answers but on the subject of murder.
>>>> those murders and such were done in the name of god.
>>>> the thing i always ask myself is, where those really done by god or did
>>>> they just put that in the bible.
>>>> now, as to the laws and such, you're forgetting about what's known as
>>>> the
>>>> new covenute and basically that took place after jesus died and rose
>>>> from
>>>> the dead.
>>>> i'll admit it's a bit mind boggling and honestly i respect your views
>>>> and
>>>> can even see where you are coming from. but, after the new covenute we
>>>> no
>>>> longer see any of this so, in conclusion, i believe a lot of the old
>>>> testament was the laws of moses yes but the laws of god as well. again,
>>>> the
>>>> new covenute is as such that we no longer need to follow the laws say
>>>> in
>>>> lavidicus.
>>>> god bless
>>>> Timothy
>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>> bandcamp
>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>> twitter
>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>> Skype
>>>> djtimothy1
>>>> facebooks
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>> reverbnation
>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>> youtube
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>> phone
>>>> 7244011224
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 11, 2013, at 2:53 AM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Linda,
>>>>> I appreciate your honest response to my concerns.  I hope you
>>>>> understand that I'm not sharing my opinions merely for the sake of
>>>>> contention; all these questions come from careful study of the Bible
>>>>> and, in fact, years of unanswered prayers.  I won't claim to be as
>>>>> literate in the Bible as some of you doubtless are but I can honestly
>>>>> say I know it fairly well and, yes, I've seen inconsistancies and
>>>>> contradictions a plenty.  And I'm not merely looking to criticize
>>>>> anything I possibly can just for the sake of argument; I feel my
>>>>> concerns are legitimate and justified.
>>>>> Furthermore, while in Christian Theology the New Testament is
>>>>> obviously the centerpiece of the Bible, the Old Testament is
>>>>> definitely an integral part.  And I'm genuinely curious how you can
>>>>> read Jehovah command his people "thou shalt not murder" and then turn
>>>>> around a couple books later and command his people to slaughter entire
>>>>> nations, women and children included.  This is directly sanctioned and
>>>>> commanded by Jehovah numerous times in the old testament; feel free to
>>>>> look up Deuteronomy chapter 7, numbers 21, numbers 25, numbers 31,
>>>>> Deuteronomy chapter 20 verses 10-17, and numerous other instances
>>>>> where God is clearly telling the Israelites to blatantly defy his
>>>>> earlier commandment not to murder.  If you don't see that as a double
>>>>> standard, and I'll say as respectfully as I can that it boggles my
>>>>> mind how you can not, can you at least understand how I might be a
>>>>> sincere ethical person and view it that way?
>>>>> Now, as to your point about the original greek and hebrew.  First
>>>>> off, especially where the new testament i concerned, I don't think we
>>>>> have the "original" anything.  Sure, as Greg pointed out in an earlier
>>>>> post, we have enough fragments of manuscripts that we can reliably
>>>>> piece together, for the most part, most of the New Testament; I'll
>>>>> freely admit this is not my area of expertise, but I believe that's
>>>>> especially true of the Paulene epistles.  Anyways I'm afraid I'm
>>>>> getting sidetracked...but even from the greek and Hebrew we have,
>>>>> which is far from "original" the translations become more problematic.
>>>>> For example, in many places where you have the word "servant" in the
>>>>> KJV, the greek word is more accurately rendered as "slave."  I'm
>>>>> afraid if I keep going too much longer on this train of thought I'll
>>>>> be terribly out of my depth, but I think I have enough of a layman's
>>>>> understanding of the Greek and Hebrew versions of the Bible to know
>>>>> that these huge moral dilemmas can't all be put to bed by saying "the
>>>>> real meaning got lost in translation somewhere."
>>>>> As for burning in hell forever...you might be surprised to find I
>>>>> wasn't being flippant in the slightest.  At least, I wasn't intending
>>>>> to be.  The idea that good people can be condemned forever while some
>>>>> people who aren't nearly so good (I'm not lumping all Christians in
>>>>> that category, because most of you seem to be decent people) can go to
>>>>> heaven forever really rubs me the wrong way, for some reason.  And,
>>>>> for the record it was Timothy, not I,who brought up infant baptism.  I
>>>>> was refering to the group of people, for all I know the majority of
>>>>> Earth's population throughout history, who never even heard the name
>>>>> "jesus" in their mortal lives or, if they did hear the name, never had
>>>>> a clue what the Bible claims his message was.  I can respect the idea,
>>>>> held by some Christians, obviously more troubled by this than me since
>>>>> it is part of their own belief system, that those who never knew
>>>>> Jesus' message in mortality, through circumstances outside their
>>>>> control, will have the chance to accept him post mortum.  Call it
>>>>> antiBiblical if you like, many Christians who know the Bible like the
>>>>> back of their hands will probably disagree with you, but if the Bible
>>>>> message is that anybody who didn't accept Christ in mortal life, even
>>>>> those who never even had the chance because they lived long and happy
>>>>> lives in China or the Inca Empire or something, is damned
>>>>> forever...then I passionately, respectfully but unabashedly an
>>>>> unashamedly disagree with the Bible.
>>>>> Well, folks, that is all.  I find myself incredibly tired and
>>>>> mentally drained, but I appreciate your patience and forbearance.  I
>>>>> acknowledge that my views put me in the minority on this list, and
>>>>> that's definitely putting it mildly.  I'd like to think that airing
>>>>> out my views here, instead of on some Atheist or Antitheist listserve,
>>>>> is a mark in favor of my sincerity and desire to genuinely find the
>>>>> truth.  After all, if I'm honestly wrong, the people who share my
>>>>> false notions aren't very likely to prove it to me.  To that end, I
>>>>> post my opinions here not to insult, or to start a fight, but to be
>>>>> sincerely questioned and challenged.  If I'm in error, I invite any of
>>>>> you to logically and rationally point out my mistakes.  I've talked to
>>>>> many Christians who are much smarter than me and they haven't been
>>>>> able to do it, I've thoroughly studied most of the Bible, especially
>>>>> the Gospels, and that's just left me with more questions than
>>>>> answers...but maybe I'm missing something, and I'm open to anyone who
>>>>> can honestly and irrefutably prove me wrong, though I'm skeptical of
>>>>> it happening.
>>>>> Anyways, warmest regards and best wishes to you all.  I am mindful
>>>>> of those of us going through hard times and dealing with incredibly
>>>>> powerful adversity; you are definitely in my thoughts.
>>>>> Fondly and cordially,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/10/13, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Curt,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have all the answers, and the Bible doesn't tell us
>>>>>> absolutely everything. What I have said in my posts is not my
>>>>>> opinion, but it's what the Bible clearly says, which I
>>>>>> whole-heartedly believe. And, I don't believe that I said little
>>>>>> children would go to hell if they didn't heed God's call before they
>>>>>> die. There is an age when they can and do understand, some as early
>>>>>> as 4 years old. God is sovereign, and it's all up to Him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As to you personally, yes, at this point, you will spend eternity in
>>>>>> hell. Please don't be flippant about having lots of company with the
>>>>>> people you know. You'll all be in constant torment, from which there
>>>>>> will be no relief. You shouldn't take that lightly; it's not a joking
>>>>>> matter. And, don't base your opinions on the Old Testament only. Just
>>>>>> because there was much immorality in those days, that doesn't mean
>>>>>> that God condoned it. He didn't then, and He doesn't now. Read the
>>>>>> New Testament as well, and forget your preconceived false notions.
>>>>>> The Bible is not full of double standards, contradictions or
>>>>>> inconsistencies. Sometimes it's a matter of translation. The English
>>>>>> language does not always have words to properly say what the original
>>>>>> Hebrew or Greek does. Read it with an open mind and a willingness to
>>>>>> learn from it and accept its teachings. Accept the whole Bible, not
>>>>>> just the parts that you agree with. Ask God in prayer to show Himself
>>>>>> to you through His word, if you really want to know. God knows
>>>>>> whether you are truly seeking or just looking for things to criticize
>>>>>> and be disgruntled about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 11:56 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>>>>>> Linda,
>>>>>>> What of those billions upon billions who never heard the name
>>>>>>> "jesus" in their lives?  Does God condemn them for those
>>>>>>> circumstances
>>>>>>> which, if you believe, you would have to concede he is responsible
>>>>>>> for?  That hardly seems infinitely just, much less infinitely
>>>>>>> merciful, to me.
>>>>>>> And what of people like me who, seeing numerous contradictions and
>>>>>>> inconsistancies in the Bible, not to mention the double standard of
>>>>>>> morality which seems to make itself known after even a cursory
>>>>>>> reading
>>>>>>> of the Old Testament, decide we can't honestly and in good faith
>>>>>>> believe such a book?  Are we condemned to the fire forever, with no
>>>>>>> chance of an end to our punishment (even after billions and billions
>>>>>>> of years), while professing Christians, some of them more sinful
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> us, are sanctified and justified for salvation?  I suppose, by your
>>>>>>> definition, there is absolutely no hope for me unless I sincerely
>>>>>>> devote myself to a faith which, and I'm only speaking for myself
>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>> and meaning as little offense as possible, seems irrational and not
>>>>>>> the most effective path to me being an ethical and moral person.
>>>>>>> I guess I can take at least a modicum of solace because, if you're
>>>>>>> right, I'll at least have some good company in my eternal damnation.
>>>>>>> If I'm going to be burning in agony forever, at least I'll be able
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> share my torture with the likes of Gandhi, the Buddha, Albert
>>>>>>> Einstein, Socrates, Thomas Jefferson (before you say he was a
>>>>>>> Christian, read the Jefferson Bible and I imagine it will change
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> mind), Confucious and many more of humanity's best and brightest,
>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>> morally and intelectually.  That's at least some comfort, isn't it?
>>>>>>> In closing, I'd just like to reiterate my desire for civil and
>>>>>>> reasonable dialogue.  I'll confess this last message was passionate
>>>>>>> because, I won't lie, this conversation strikes a nerve near and
>>>>>>> dear
>>>>>>> to my heart.  If you object to the tone I took in this e-mail, I'd
>>>>>>> politely ask you to read this whole conversation before accusing me
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> such; I'd submit that, though I have tried to make my case with
>>>>>>> passion and furvor, I have not been any more intense than Timothy or
>>>>>>> Linda in stating my opinion.  I stand by what I said, but I don't
>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>> any insult or offense.
>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/8/13, Timothy Clark Music <timothyclarkmusic at me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> that's true but,  as a child someone might believe that and they
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> professed faith in jesus christ but as an adult things are often
>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>> you do things you shouldn't do. what about people like that? will
>>>>>>>> god
>>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>>> them? when we sin in our prayers we should say lord i know i've
>>>>>>>> sinned
>>>>>>>> please forgive me of the sins i've committed today and will commit
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> future. it's not something you have to do but wouldn't you rather
>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> you've forgiven asked for forgiveness every night and that your
>>>>>>>> slate
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> clean.
>>>>>>>> god bless
>>>>>>>> Timothy
>>>>>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>>>>>> bandcamp
>>>>>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>>>>>> twitter
>>>>>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>>>>>> Skype
>>>>>>>> djtimothy1
>>>>>>>> facebooks
>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>>>>>> reverbnation
>>>>>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>> youtube
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>>> 7244011224
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 8, 2013, at 11:49 PM, Linda Mentink wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jesus said, My sheep hear My voice, and I know them. No one will
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>>>> to snatch them out of My hand. The Bible doesn't say that if we
>>>>>>>>> sin,
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> will not be saved. The Bible doesn't say that if we backslide, we
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> be saved. We will all be judged, and all God's children will spend
>>>>>>>>> eternity with Him in heaven. Those who are not God's children, who
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> counting on their good works and their outstanding lives, and who
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> there is more than one path to heaven, will spend eternity in
>>>>>>>>> hell,
>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>> they will burn forever! Salvation is by faith alone in Christ
>>>>>>>>> alone.
>>>>>>>>> Anything added to what Christ has done cheapens His death and
>>>>>>>>> resurrection.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At 10:38 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> i'll agree with you as to the fact that if you're actually a
>>>>>>>>>> christian
>>>>>>>>>> that you regularly wouldn't do those things but in this time and
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>> last days where we find ourselves people profess faith and turn
>>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>>> and do those things so, do you think people like that will still
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> saved.
>>>>>>>>>> i for one don't think they will be. thoughts anyone?
>>>>>>>>>> god bless
>>>>>>>>>> Timothy
>>>>>>>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>>>>>>>> bandcamp
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>>>>>>>> twitter
>>>>>>>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>>> Skype
>>>>>>>>>> djtimothy1
>>>>>>>>>> facebooks
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>>>>>>>> reverbnation
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>>> youtube
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>>>>> 7244011224
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On May 8, 2013, at 11:33 PM, Linda Mentink wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Genuine Christians will not do those things. God may hide His
>>>>>>>>>>> face
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>> us for awhile, but He will never take away anything He has given
>>>>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>> blessings unless He has something better.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At 10:29 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> the question laid out before us tonight is this. once saved,
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> always saved.
>>>>>>>>>>>> if you accept god into your life and you serve the lord
>>>>>>>>>>>> faithfully
>>>>>>>>>>>> then i would have to say that you would be rewarded in life
>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal.
>>>>>>>>>>>> but, if you are saved as a child and you murder or rape someone
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> something sinister will you still be saved?
>>>>>>>>>>>> i personally don't think so.
>>>>>>>>>>>> god can gain favor with you but god can also take his blessings
>>>>>>>>>>>> away.
>>>>>>>>>>>> i think if you dishonor god and you don't repent you'll be
>>>>>>>>>>>> judged
>>>>>>>>>>>> accordingly.
>>>>>>>>>>>> i'm just wandering, what are your thoughts on this subject?
>>>>>>>>>>>> i for one think you can lose the favor and the blessings of
>>>>>>>>>>>> god.
>>>>>>>>>>>> god bless
>>>>>>>>>>>> Timothy
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>>>>>>>>>> bandcamp
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> twitter
>>>>>>>>>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>>>>> Skype
>>>>>>>>>>>> djtimothy1
>>>>>>>>>>>> facebooks
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>>>>>>>>>> reverbnation
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>>>>> youtube
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>>>>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>>>>>>> 7244011224
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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