[Faith-talk] once saved always saved????

[Timothy Clark Music]

greg, i agree with you. 
 thanks for this post. 
 
god bless 
 Timothy 
 Your friend in the music industry 
 bandcamp 
 http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com 
 twitter 
 @timothyclark13 
 Skype 
 djtimothy1 
 facebooks 
 http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13 
 http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic 
 reverbnation 
 http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13 
 youtube 
 http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical 
 phone 
 7244011224 






On May 11, 2013, at 1:38 PM, Greg Aikens wrote:

> Hi Kurt,
> I have waited to weigh in on these subjects because I wanted to give them the treatment they deserve.  You know how to pick the hard ones, that's for sure.  My biggest problem with your posts is your repeated assertion that embracing Christian faith requires one to suspend rational thought in this area.  I hope that by attempting to answer your questions, I can at least show you that faith is indeed reasonable, even if you disagree with the fundamentals used in building the argument.  I'll try and tackle as many of these as I have time for now.
> 
> On the ethical double standards found in the Old Testament: Lots of people like to point out the inconsistencies they find in the Bible, but the ethical ones seem to be the most troubling.  As you asked, how could a good and just god condemn men from murdering one another and then condone the slaughter of nations?  First, a couple of contextual notes to keep in mind for this question.  It is important to remember the role of Israel as the people God had chosen to be his ambassadors to the rest of the world.  God had revealed himself to all of humanity and they knew him (Check Genesis 4), but by the time of the flood, most of human kind had abandoned God.  God chose Abraham and his descendants through Israel to bless all nations (Genesis 12:3), meaning that they would reveal God to all people and eventually bring them back into relationship with God and restore the peace that existed before humans chose to sin.  It is in this role that God provides his law, a list of guidelines that
> show the Israelites how to live in relationship to God and to each other.  The command to not kill one another fits well in this context.  
> But, Israel is also functioning in their role as God's chosen people when he commands them to kill the other nations around them that threaten their survival as God's people and the preservation of God's message.  I would also add that there is a difference between killing on an individual level and killing on a state or governmental level.  When a government decides to kill someone who is a threat to society, it is not generally considered murder (I know lots of people have different feelings on this).  I don't see the tension between God's command not to murder and his command to kill nations as a contradiction.  Rather, his command not to murder highlights the seriousness of the offense of the people the Israelites were sent to kill.  The verse references escape me at the moment but God makes it clear that these groups were wicked, had abandoned him, and had been given ample opportunities to repent and turn to him.  
> This doesn't answer the question of whether or not it was just for God to kill these people, but it might shed some light on one approach to the contradiction you pointed out.  
> 
> On hell/eternal punishment/judgment:
> For the moment, let's set to the side the question of what happens to people who through no fault of their own never hear about God.  I'll try and get to that one later.  I know the idea of God sending people to hell or even the existence of hell can be extremely emotionally charged.  It just doesn't seem fair that anyone would have to endure eternal punishment, but let's back up a little and try to remove the emotion from the equation.  Remember our conversation on another thread about God choosing not to violate human free will but instead inviting them into relationship with him.  A place like hell has to exist for those people who choose not to be with God.  If someone spent their life on earth rejecting God's message and wanting nothing to do with God, would it be right for God to force that person to spend an eternity in his presence when their decisions clearly demonstrate that is not what they desire?  The Bible uses imagery of fire, darkness, and torment in reference to
> hell, but the reality is none of us really know what it might look like.  The bible does make it clear that it is a complete separation from God, which for humans made to live in relationship with him will be unending torment.  It will be a place completely devoid of hope.  God makes it clear that it is his will that none should experience this reality, but he allows us to choose for ourselves.  If you have never read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis, I highly recommend it.  In it, Lewis creatively describes the relationship between heaven and hell and imagines some interesting scenes in which people choose one or the other.  
> Your argument about good people being condemned to hell might make sense if the decision of where one spends eternity were based on goodness.  Simply put, it is not.  It is based on one's relationship to God.  Why would it be based on anything else when heaven is spending eternity in God's presence and hell is spending eternity disconnected from him?  
> 
> To the question of what about those who never hear?  This can be one of the most troubling questions, both emotionally and intellectually.  I have struggled with this one for a long time and even took a seminary course that explored this question in depth.  Before I explain where I fall on this one, I just need to say that it is not my job to determine where any individual will spend the rest of eternity.  I can't know the inner most thoughts of any individual and would not presume to judge their hearts as god can and does do.  
> Now for my answer: The Bible makes it clear throughout the old and new testaments that even though God did not have the same relationship with all people groups that he did with Israel, he did not leave himself without a witness to all people.  This means that all people, on some level, had an awareness of God's existence and his expectations.  As I mentioned in another answer, all people knew who God was at some point before the flood (genesis 4).  In Romans 1:19-21 Paul talks about how creation itself reveals God's existence to all people.  Theologians refer to this concept as a moral law that is innate within all humans.  C.S. Lewis discusses it in terms of a morality shared by all people groups.  There is a set of morals that is shared by all civilizations, such as not murdering, not stealing, sexual morality etc.  The definitions of these specific rules look very different, but the root concept is there.  Even in societies where having multiple sexual partners is acceptable, the
> idea of rape is still unacceptable.  Lewis makes this point to indicate the existence of a higher moral being, i.e. God, but I think the point is also relevant here.  I believe that those who have not heard the name of Jesus will be judged on their faithfulness or lack of it to the revelation they have received.  For many this revelation may amount to the moral law that exists in the heart of every human, for others it may be more.  
> Now, I am not saying that there are multiple paths to God.  Jesus Christ is still the one and only mediator between us and God and what he did on the cross makes it possible for all people to be saved.  I'm saying that just like the people of ancient Israel were saved by their faith in advance of what Christ would do, so also people who never hear the name of Jesus can be saved through their faith in what they know of God.  (Yeah, I don't believe that the people of the Old Testament were saved by sacrifices.  The whole God of the Old testament vs. god of the new testament idea is bunk and only makes things more confusing.  Its' the same God.)
> Also, because I approach this question from a position of faith, I can trust that the God I have found to be good and trustworthy in other areas will not fail to be good and worthy of my trust in this area as well.  So in summary, I don't know for certain how it works but my faith is not rooted in the answer to this question.
> 
> Man, this really got long quickly.  Your questions deserve good answers though and I feel like I'm only showing you the tip of the iceberg.  I know I didn't get to everything, but hopefully this will give you something to chew on for a little bit. :)
> 
> God bless you as you seek truth.  
> 
> -Greg
> On May 11, 2013, at 2:53 AM, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Linda,
>> I appreciate your honest response to my concerns.  I hope you
>> understand that I'm not sharing my opinions merely for the sake of
>> contention; all these questions come from careful study of the Bible
>> and, in fact, years of unanswered prayers.  I won't claim to be as
>> literate in the Bible as some of you doubtless are but I can honestly
>> say I know it fairly well and, yes, I've seen inconsistancies and
>> contradictions a plenty.  And I'm not merely looking to criticize
>> anything I possibly can just for the sake of argument; I feel my
>> concerns are legitimate and justified.
>> Furthermore, while in Christian Theology the New Testament is
>> obviously the centerpiece of the Bible, the Old Testament is
>> definitely an integral part.  And I'm genuinely curious how you can
>> read Jehovah command his people "thou shalt not murder" and then turn
>> around a couple books later and command his people to slaughter entire
>> nations, women and children included.  This is directly sanctioned and
>> commanded by Jehovah numerous times in the old testament; feel free to
>> look up Deuteronomy chapter 7, numbers 21, numbers 25, numbers 31,
>> Deuteronomy chapter 20 verses 10-17, and numerous other instances
>> where God is clearly telling the Israelites to blatantly defy his
>> earlier commandment not to murder.  If you don't see that as a double
>> standard, and I'll say as respectfully as I can that it boggles my
>> mind how you can not, can you at least understand how I might be a
>> sincere ethical person and view it that way?
>> Now, as to your point about the original greek and hebrew.  First
>> off, especially where the new testament i concerned, I don't think we
>> have the "original" anything.  Sure, as Greg pointed out in an earlier
>> post, we have enough fragments of manuscripts that we can reliably
>> piece together, for the most part, most of the New Testament; I'll
>> freely admit this is not my area of expertise, but I believe that's
>> especially true of the Paulene epistles.  Anyways I'm afraid I'm
>> getting sidetracked...but even from the greek and Hebrew we have,
>> which is far from "original" the translations become more problematic.
>> For example, in many places where you have the word "servant" in the
>> KJV, the greek word is more accurately rendered as "slave."  I'm
>> afraid if I keep going too much longer on this train of thought I'll
>> be terribly out of my depth, but I think I have enough of a layman's
>> understanding of the Greek and Hebrew versions of the Bible to know
>> that these huge moral dilemmas can't all be put to bed by saying "the
>> real meaning got lost in translation somewhere."
>> As for burning in hell forever...you might be surprised to find I
>> wasn't being flippant in the slightest.  At least, I wasn't intending
>> to be.  The idea that good people can be condemned forever while some
>> people who aren't nearly so good (I'm not lumping all Christians in
>> that category, because most of you seem to be decent people) can go to
>> heaven forever really rubs me the wrong way, for some reason.  And,
>> for the record it was Timothy, not I,who brought up infant baptism.  I
>> was refering to the group of people, for all I know the majority of
>> Earth's population throughout history, who never even heard the name
>> "jesus" in their mortal lives or, if they did hear the name, never had
>> a clue what the Bible claims his message was.  I can respect the idea,
>> held by some Christians, obviously more troubled by this than me since
>> it is part of their own belief system, that those who never knew
>> Jesus' message in mortality, through circumstances outside their
>> control, will have the chance to accept him post mortum.  Call it
>> antiBiblical if you like, many Christians who know the Bible like the
>> back of their hands will probably disagree with you, but if the Bible
>> message is that anybody who didn't accept Christ in mortal life, even
>> those who never even had the chance because they lived long and happy
>> lives in China or the Inca Empire or something, is damned
>> forever...then I passionately, respectfully but unabashedly an
>> unashamedly disagree with the Bible.
>> Well, folks, that is all.  I find myself incredibly tired and
>> mentally drained, but I appreciate your patience and forbearance.  I
>> acknowledge that my views put me in the minority on this list, and
>> that's definitely putting it mildly.  I'd like to think that airing
>> out my views here, instead of on some Atheist or Antitheist listserve,
>> is a mark in favor of my sincerity and desire to genuinely find the
>> truth.  After all, if I'm honestly wrong, the people who share my
>> false notions aren't very likely to prove it to me.  To that end, I
>> post my opinions here not to insult, or to start a fight, but to be
>> sincerely questioned and challenged.  If I'm in error, I invite any of
>> you to logically and rationally point out my mistakes.  I've talked to
>> many Christians who are much smarter than me and they haven't been
>> able to do it, I've thoroughly studied most of the Bible, especially
>> the Gospels, and that's just left me with more questions than
>> answers...but maybe I'm missing something, and I'm open to anyone who
>> can honestly and irrefutably prove me wrong, though I'm skeptical of
>> it happening.
>> Anyways, warmest regards and best wishes to you all.  I am mindful
>> of those of us going through hard times and dealing with incredibly
>> powerful adversity; you are definitely in my thoughts.
>> Fondly and cordially,
>> Kirt
>> 
>> On 5/10/13, Linda Mentink <mentink at frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>> Hi Curt,
>>> 
>>> I don't have all the answers, and the Bible doesn't tell us
>>> absolutely everything. What I have said in my posts is not my
>>> opinion, but it's what the Bible clearly says, which I
>>> whole-heartedly believe. And, I don't believe that I said little
>>> children would go to hell if they didn't heed God's call before they
>>> die. There is an age when they can and do understand, some as early
>>> as 4 years old. God is sovereign, and it's all up to Him.
>>> 
>>> As to you personally, yes, at this point, you will spend eternity in
>>> hell. Please don't be flippant about having lots of company with the
>>> people you know. You'll all be in constant torment, from which there
>>> will be no relief. You shouldn't take that lightly; it's not a joking
>>> matter. And, don't base your opinions on the Old Testament only. Just
>>> because there was much immorality in those days, that doesn't mean
>>> that God condoned it. He didn't then, and He doesn't now. Read the
>>> New Testament as well, and forget your preconceived false notions.
>>> The Bible is not full of double standards, contradictions or
>>> inconsistencies. Sometimes it's a matter of translation. The English
>>> language does not always have words to properly say what the original
>>> Hebrew or Greek does. Read it with an open mind and a willingness to
>>> learn from it and accept its teachings. Accept the whole Bible, not
>>> just the parts that you agree with. Ask God in prayer to show Himself
>>> to you through His word, if you really want to know. God knows
>>> whether you are truly seeking or just looking for things to criticize
>>> and be disgruntled about.
>>> 
>>> Blessings,
>>> 
>>> Linda
>>> 
>>> At 11:56 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>>> Linda,
>>>> What of those billions upon billions who never heard the name
>>>> "jesus" in their lives?  Does God condemn them for those circumstances
>>>> which, if you believe, you would have to concede he is responsible
>>>> for?  That hardly seems infinitely just, much less infinitely
>>>> merciful, to me.
>>>> And what of people like me who, seeing numerous contradictions and
>>>> inconsistancies in the Bible, not to mention the double standard of
>>>> morality which seems to make itself known after even a cursory reading
>>>> of the Old Testament, decide we can't honestly and in good faith
>>>> believe such a book?  Are we condemned to the fire forever, with no
>>>> chance of an end to our punishment (even after billions and billions
>>>> of years), while professing Christians, some of them more sinful than
>>>> us, are sanctified and justified for salvation?  I suppose, by your
>>>> definition, there is absolutely no hope for me unless I sincerely
>>>> devote myself to a faith which, and I'm only speaking for myself here
>>>> and meaning as little offense as possible, seems irrational and not
>>>> the most effective path to me being an ethical and moral person.
>>>> I guess I can take at least a modicum of solace because, if you're
>>>> right, I'll at least have some good company in my eternal damnation.
>>>> If I'm going to be burning in agony forever, at least I'll be able to
>>>> share my torture with the likes of Gandhi, the Buddha, Albert
>>>> Einstein, Socrates, Thomas Jefferson (before you say he was a
>>>> Christian, read the Jefferson Bible and I imagine it will change your
>>>> mind), Confucious and many more of humanity's best and brightest, both
>>>> morally and intelectually.  That's at least some comfort, isn't it?
>>>> In closing, I'd just like to reiterate my desire for civil and
>>>> reasonable dialogue.  I'll confess this last message was passionate
>>>> because, I won't lie, this conversation strikes a nerve near and dear
>>>> to my heart.  If you object to the tone I took in this e-mail, I'd
>>>> politely ask you to read this whole conversation before accusing me of
>>>> such; I'd submit that, though I have tried to make my case with
>>>> passion and furvor, I have not been any more intense than Timothy or
>>>> Linda in stating my opinion.  I stand by what I said, but I don't mean
>>>> any insult or offense.
>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>> Kirt
>>>> 
>>>> On 5/8/13, Timothy Clark Music <timothyclarkmusic at me.com> wrote:
>>>>> that's true but,  as a child someone might believe that and they may
>>>>> have
>>>>> professed faith in jesus christ but as an adult things are often
>>>>> different.
>>>>> you do things you shouldn't do. what about people like that? will god
>>>>> save
>>>>> them? when we sin in our prayers we should say lord i know i've sinned
>>>>> please forgive me of the sins i've committed today and will commit in
>>>>> the
>>>>> future. it's not something you have to do but wouldn't you rather know
>>>>> that
>>>>> you've forgiven asked for forgiveness every night and that your slate
>>>>> is
>>>>> clean.
>>>>> god bless
>>>>> Timothy
>>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>>> bandcamp
>>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>>> twitter
>>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>>> Skype
>>>>> djtimothy1
>>>>> facebooks
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>>> reverbnation
>>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>>> youtube
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>>> phone
>>>>> 7244011224
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On May 8, 2013, at 11:49 PM, Linda Mentink wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jesus said, My sheep hear My voice, and I know them. No one will be
>>>>>> able
>>>>>> to snatch them out of My hand. The Bible doesn't say that if we sin,
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> will not be saved. The Bible doesn't say that if we backslide, we will
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> be saved. We will all be judged, and all God's children will spend
>>>>>> eternity with Him in heaven. Those who are not God's children, who are
>>>>>> counting on their good works and their outstanding lives, and who
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> there is more than one path to heaven, will spend eternity in hell,
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> they will burn forever! Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.
>>>>>> Anything added to what Christ has done cheapens His death and
>>>>>> resurrection.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> At 10:38 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>>>>>> i'll agree with you as to the fact that if you're actually a
>>>>>>> christian
>>>>>>> that you regularly wouldn't do those things but in this time and in
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> last days where we find ourselves people profess faith and turn
>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>> and do those things so, do you think people like that will still be
>>>>>>> saved.
>>>>>>> i for one don't think they will be. thoughts anyone?
>>>>>>> god bless
>>>>>>> Timothy
>>>>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>>>>> bandcamp
>>>>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>>>>> twitter
>>>>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>>>>> Skype
>>>>>>> djtimothy1
>>>>>>> facebooks
>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>>>>> reverbnation
>>>>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>> youtube
>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>> 7244011224
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On May 8, 2013, at 11:33 PM, Linda Mentink wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Genuine Christians will not do those things. God may hide His face
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> us for awhile, but He will never take away anything He has given us
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> blessings unless He has something better.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> At 10:29 PM 5/8/2013, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>> the question laid out before us tonight is this. once saved, are
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> always saved.
>>>>>>>>> if you accept god into your life and you serve the lord faithfully
>>>>>>>>> then i would have to say that you would be rewarded in life
>>>>>>>>> eternal.
>>>>>>>>> but, if you are saved as a child and you murder or rape someone or
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> something sinister will you still be saved?
>>>>>>>>> i personally don't think so.
>>>>>>>>> god can gain favor with you but god can also take his blessings
>>>>>>>>> away.
>>>>>>>>> i think if you dishonor god and you don't repent you'll be judged
>>>>>>>>> accordingly.
>>>>>>>>> i'm just wandering, what are your thoughts on this subject?
>>>>>>>>> i for one think you can lose the favor and the blessings of god.
>>>>>>>>> god bless
>>>>>>>>> Timothy
>>>>>>>>> Your friend in the music industry
>>>>>>>>> bandcamp
>>>>>>>>> http://www.timothyclark13.bandcamp.com
>>>>>>>>> twitter
>>>>>>>>> @timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>> Skype
>>>>>>>>> djtimothy1
>>>>>>>>> facebooks
>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/timothyclarkmusic
>>>>>>>>> reverbnation
>>>>>>>>> http://www.reverbnation.com/timothyclark13
>>>>>>>>> youtube
>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/timothyclarkoffical
>>>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>>>> 7244011224
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
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