[Faith-talk] Eastern Religions

Wed May 14 21:51:43 UTC 2014

no, kirt is the agnostic.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 5:22 PM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Eastern Religions

Poppa Bear,

I’m sorry that I misunderstood your beliefs. I thought you said to Mostafa 
that you are Agnostic.

You are speaking IMO of apparent truths. I am speaking of transcendent 
Truth, which is beyond all things and beyond all descriptions. Truth is not 
really the best word for it, as truth seems to have an opposite: falsehood. 
This transcendent reality, this That, has no opposite, because it is all 
that is. You say it is vague because there is nothing that can be said about 
it.

All I can say is that we are all this transcendent reality. Not mere parts, 
but the totality of it. Just as the wave of the ocean temporarily separates 
itself, but then returns to its source, so each of us temporarily seems to 
separate ourselves from this Source, but inevitably we return to it. We have 
never left; it only appears as such.

There is no external world. It is only a projection of mind, of ego. It is 
“created” so that we can in the end realize it was all a mirage. It was the 
delicate interplay of consciousness reflected upon itself. As I said before, 
there is no doer. There is no one behind the mask. It is all nothing. God, 
man, soul, is all a creation of mind.

Anyway my whole point in posting this was to see if anyone else out there 
was familiar with this philosophy. I think it is good to have a diversity on 
this list, so I wanted to express my own thoughts.

Brandon
On May 14, 2014, at 11:52 AM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Brandon, thanks for your thoughts on this, and just so you know, I 
> am
> far from agnostic. Without being disrespectful, it would seem that this
> concept of truth is so open ended that about anything can be fit within 
> the
> definition. I think that truth is opriori, a self evident truth that 
> stands
> as truth regardless of whether if anybody believes it or not, example, 2
> plus 2 objects would be 4 objects regardless if somebody didn't believe 
> it,
> if it was in space, underground or where ever, there would still be four
> objects. Also, if there is truth, then the opposite is there, and that 
> would
> be a lie. Nature, science, math, emotions all show us that everything has 
> an
> opposite and that would appear to be a self evident truth that is based on
> reality. So when somebody says, this may be your truth, but not my truth, 
> it
> is a head scratcher to me. Somebody may say, the best car is a Ford and
> another may say the best car is a Chevy, those are simply opinions, even
> though they may feel that they are the gospel on cars, they are subjective
> preferences. When we except something, we are rejecting something else and
> often the difference is between truth and a lie, good or bad, dark and
> light. Dark and light do not coexist, light drives out the darkness and
> truth exposes lies. Some people are in bondage and some are free, some
> people walk in the light and some in dark. Also, there are sometimes vast
> differences between, facts, knowledge and, beliefs and truth. Giving
> something a definition doesn't make it a true definition, or even a truth,
> often people will bass their "truth" over an antidotal experience, or
> conclude that if this worked for my cousin then it must be true, example,
> Jane had cancer, she started eating nothing but wheat grass and became
> cancer free, there for, wheat grass cures cancer. This kind of conclusion 
> is
> a guesstamation at best, but many people reason like this all day and base
> their belief system around examples like this. Along with this, some would
> say, if it feels right, then it must be truth. Unfortunately, things 
> feeling
> right and truth are often as far from one another as the sun and moon.
> Hitler felt that it was right for him to try and extinguish an entire
> culture based on nothing besides a ethnic title, but he was believing and
> propagating a maniacal lie to the German people the whole time. These are
> just a few examples of some of my thoughts and my initial reaction to your
> response.
> Take care and have a good day in your part of the world
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brandon Olivares [mailto:programmer2188 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:41 AM
> To: Poppa Bear
> Cc: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Eastern Religions
>
> Poppa Bear,
>
> There are several answers to this. Obviously, truth is reality. What is, 
> is
> truth. The question is, what really is?
>
> For the purposes of ending suffering, which is why I think we are here, 
> that
> doesn't much matter. What matters is that we don't argue with truth. 
> Arguing
> with truth is the root of all suffering.
>
> Let me give an example. Let's say you apply for a job, but you aren't
> accepted. If your reaction is anger and depression, or any other negative
> emotion, you are suffering. Why? Because truth is that you did not get the
> job, but you are trying to argue with reality. You are trying to say, "I
> should have gotten that job." But you didn't; there is no should about it.
> When you come to accept that you should not have gotten it, simply because
> you didn't, you will no longer suffer, and can go on to apply to other 
> jobs
> and either get accepted, or not.
>
> So truth in this sense is simply, that which is. When we argue with that, 
> we
> suffer. That which is will never change because we really want it to. It
> will be what it will be.
>
> If your interest is deeper than that, and you want to find your own
> spiritual identity, then we can identify Truth further, but not much. My
> favorite sentence of the Tao Te Ching says:
>
> "The tao that can be told
> is not the eternal Tao
> The name that can be named
> is not the eternal Name."
>
> So, whatever you try to say of Truth, is simply false, because Truth (and 
> I
> am using a capital T here to point out its transcendent nature), is beyond
> all words. Words are man-made, describing finite realities, but Truth is
> infinite. In Taoism, it is simply called the Tao, also often called the
> void, or nothingness, or darkness. In Hinduism, especially in advaita
> vedanta, it is called tat, which literally translates to "that."
>
> Truth is what I call God, but in reality God is a pretty poor term for it,
> because it is so abused in the west. People say, God is loving, God is 
> just,
> God hates these people or those, we must kill in the name of God, etc. God
> is anthropomorphized- it (and I use it purposefully), is made into a 
> person,
> a He usually. By so doing, God is made exclusive. He is not a she, and he
> only approves of certain things, but hates others.
>
> But Tao, Tat, that which is, approves of all. It has no opinion, because 
> it
> knows of no good or evil. It is simply being, or non-being, whichever. It
> does not matter. We are all part of that reality, our souls are really all
> specs within that larger beingness. There is no you or I or the other, but
> only Tat, Tao, Truth, filtering through our apparent perceptions. To me, 
> it
> appears as one thing because of my totality of life experiences, while to
> you, it appears as another. To you, from what you have said, it appears as
> non-being, in the way that you do not know if God exists. But it also
> appears as how you see the world, which I don't know you well enough to 
> say.
> It might appear as love, or as hate, or as joy or despair. But all of it,
> the light and the dark alike, are all Tat, Tao, God, Truth, Reality. It is
> not better or worse that you are agnostic, nor that I am non-dualist, nor
> that someone else is Christian. It is how Truth manifests to that
> individual.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Brandon
> On May 14, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello Brandon, nice to have you on the list. I was wondering after
>> reading your post, how do you define truth?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 5:45 AM
>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>> Subject: [Faith-talk] Eastern Religions
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I've been reading with interest the various thoughts posted here.
>> However, my own philosophy is in line with eastern thinking, such as
>> Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism. I don't identify with any one
>> religion, because I believe that a religion is just a series of labels
>> that in the process of self realization, we have to one day surpass
>> anyway. But I do read the writings of some of the masters. I myself
>> believe in reincarnation and karma, which are staples of eastern
>> religions, as well as non-duality, which is the believe that all
>> things are one substance- that there is neither good nor evil, right
>> nor wrong, being nor non-being, but the Truth includes and surpasses all
> of these man-made polarities.
>>
>> Anyway, I just want to see if there is anyone here who has similar
>> beliefs, or if there might be an interest in discussion of this sort of
> philosophy.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brandon
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>

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