[Faith-talk] Eastern Religions

[Poppa Bear via Faith-talk]

Christianity is not a belief that says you go to heaven because you have
done enough good things, I am thinking that in the way you have described
parts of your belief system that it may be closer to the ideas that you
somewhat described about reaching this ultimate height of our being, so
maybe you are confused with your idea of the need for good works to reach
the point of perfect transcendence. Let me ask you this, have you ever met
anybody who has stopped doing bad? If not, then how many times would it take
to come back and live a moral life and not have to continue to be
reincarnated, but become absorbed into this ocean of transcendence? If there
is no good or bad, then what would be the criteria to bass any good or bad
on? It seems very confusing to me and more convenient than truth.

-----Original Message-----
From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon
Olivares via Faith-talk
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 11:59 AM
To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Eastern Religions

Poppa Bear,

Thanks for your thoughts.

What you say is from the perspective of Protestantism, which only believes
that you need to believe in Jesus to b saved. Much of my experience comes
from the Catholic Church, which says there is much more, not least of which
is learning to live a moral life. Yes, it is easy to not kill, and not
steal, at least for most of us. But the Jesus of the Bible required a lot
more than the minimum: nothing less than perfection. (Matthew 5:48) It
requires feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, walking two miles when you
are asked to walk one. And the people who did not do these things were
called goats, and were sent off into eternal punishment.

Can you learn to be Christ-like in 80 years? Some people can. But the
majority cannot, though they might try very hard to become better people.

But take this as an example: take a man who did not live a good life.
Perhaps he was unfaithful to his spouse, he lied and stole and cheated. And
somehow his life was ended early. In Christian theology, he'd go straight to
hell. But in an alternative future, he was not killed, and lived another 20
years. In this time, he was able to turn around his life and become a good
person.

A bad person will not always be bad. If Hitler had say another few
lifetimes, to see what it was like to be persecuted, to even be killed for
his beliefs, perhaps he would himself become a good person in the end.
However, people are quick to say he,above all, deserves eternal punishment.
But I believe every one of us has a core of good,and they deserve as much
time as it takes, whether that is 1 or a million lifetimes, for that core of
good to blossom. One day, they will choose good. One day, they will turn
away from darkness.

No insult to Christians, but many of them know how to give a good speech and
play on people's emotions. I've heard of just as many people converting to
other religions, such as Islam or Hinduism. When we are unhappy, we often
look to external ways of gaining that happiness. To a person in a bad place,
a five-minute speech might give them the thought that something else is out
there that can give them happiness. But how about we check back with that
person in 6 months to a year, after the honeymoon stage, so to speak, wears
off, and see if they are any happier than before. If they are, then
wonderful. But I know from my personal experience, as one who has converted
both to and away from Christianity, that Christianity brought me no more
long-term happiness. I know others for whom it does, so I'm not saying this
as a universal condemnation, but the convert's zeal is quick to die, and
then what are we left with?

Here we are talking about long-term happiness. How can it be achieved?

As for reincarnation, I do not believe that your explanation accounts for
it. There are many documented cases where two people had a past life
regression where they knew each other in some capacity, and it could be
verified. And again, it simply makes sense. And most of the world's
religions just happen to teach it, and there is evidence that it was taught
by some in the early Christian church.

Brandon
On May 14, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:

> Brandon, do you think that it is plausible that our past life notions 
> could actually be passed down to us through our progenitors? I myself 
> believe that it is not just our physiological traits that come from 
> our forefathers, but latent memories can be passed down to our off 
> spring as well. For instance, If I had a great grandpa who grew up in 
> Ireland and spent his life along that countries wild and rugged 
> landscape, then I may gravitate to having a deep appreciation for that 
> same wild landscape and may often feel a since of familiarity when I 
> see things that he was fawned of. In the same manner, the memories of 
> more intimate and personal experiences may be passed down. I think 
> that this is within the scientific realm and has a great amount of 
> validity as the power of DNA is made more clear over time. As far as 
> your thoughts on whether or not we can grow wise enough, or know 
> enough within 70 years or so to get to a place called heaven, there 
> are only a few basic things we need to know from a Christian 
> perspective. It is really a message that is simple enough for a child 
> to either except or reject, beyond that it becomes a philosophy that 
> is no longer a promise or a truth for humanity. It is the only belief 
> system that I am aware of that takes no extensive schooling, training, 
> test or ceremony to except or reject. I have heard the message of the 
> Gospel laid out in 5 minutes and without any preamble, over ten 
> thousand people came forward with tears in their eyes to take up the 
> promise of this belief. These were people who had experienced the 
> worship of hundreds of different so called God's in eastern religions, 
> cruel dictators, terrible wars that laid their country and families to 
> waist and when it was said and done, that five minute message gave 
> them something that they couldn't find any ware else. Was that message 
> a truth,? Were the promises made in that five minute talk true 
> promises, or lies? If That can't be answered without needing some 
> proposed theory to attached to it, then we need to evaluate many 
> things in our ability to reason through the modes and operations of 
> our questioning,  because it is a simple question and in its essence, 
> truth is simple, and most things are either a truth or a lie. I find 
> that many people are simply scared to hold on to a real truth, because 
> at the heart of truth you have to be willing to give up a lot to 
> really protect the most precious truths and so many don't want to 
> really make that kind of sacrifice. For instance, in WWII Churchill 
> thought it was true that people should not be slottered around the 
> entire world because one man wanted to stamp out anything that he 
> thought was not part of his idea of a super race, this being the case, 
> people had to stand on the side of the same truth that Church hill did and
be willing to sacrifice everything for that truth. Now a days, as soon as a
truth makes a person uncomfortable then they shift their position to a more
comfortable place and change their so called idea of truth based more on
fear than anything else most of the time.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 8:13 AM
> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Eastern Religions
> 
> Kirt,
> 
> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> Yes, I agree that eastern religion can comprise quite a range of 
> concepts. I am largely influenced by the non-dual schools of Hinduism, 
> particularly advaita vedanta. I don't have as great of knowledge of 
> Buddhism. In my experience, Buddhism tends to speak of emptiness, 
> while Hinduism tends to speak of an all-encompassing being, which they 
> call Brahman. I tend to agree with this latter school of thinking, 
> though both can really be true. As I said, words cannot express it.
> 
> As for reincarnation, firstly it makes the most sense to me. We all 
> come into this world at various points. Some people become 
> materialistic, while others seem to naturally become spiritually
enlightened at a very young age.
> People have different beliefs, different fears, different interests, 
> which cannot all be explained by either genetics or their upbringing.
> 
> What's the alternative? The atheist would say that we simply blink out 
> of existence at the end of our life. I don't believe this, but won't 
> go into detailed reasons here.
> 
> The other possibility is the Christian idea of heaven or hell. I find 
> this inherently unjust. How can a person definitively discover truth 
> and what is good, in a span of 70-80 years or less, to such a degree 
> that they could potentially end up in a fiery place of torment for 
> eternity? There is so much to learn in this world; we can't possibly 
> do everything we need to do, learn all the lessons we need to learn, in a
few decades.
> 
> So reincarnation makes the most sense. We have thousands of lifetimes 
> in which to learn everything we need to. There is no rush. there is no 
> judgmental God who will send us to hell if we don't believe the right 
> things or aren't righteous enough. It's just one learning experience 
> after another, until at last we discover our true nature, which I 
> discussed in my prior email.
> 
> Besides this, I've been a fan of the work of Dr. Brian Weiss. If 
> you're not familiar with him, he was a traditional psychiatrist who 
> used hypnosis in his therapies at times. Eventually he found that some 
> of his patients naturally regressed into a time before they were born in
their current life.
> Though he was very skeptical at first, pretty soon the evidence added 
> up and he had to admit to reincarnation. I believed in it before 
> reading his books, but his writings definitely helped.
> 
> I've also had past life regressions myself and had very strong
experiences.
> This is not evidence per se, but it definitely helped me to make this 
> all more than mere theory.
> 
> As for karma, I believe in the more traditional view of it. Again, 
> there's no God keeping a tally of all of our sins, but it is simply a 
> reaction to our every thought, word and action in this world. 
> Sometimes it returns almost immediately, and sometimes it won't return for
many lifetimes.
> 
> Eventually we realize that there is no doer at all, but that actions 
> simply arise in consciousness and are effortlessly carried out. At 
> this point no further karma can be incurred, because the doer, who is 
> the object of such karma, has disappeared, and only the pure light of 
> Truth, Brahman, Tat, Satchidananda, etc, is present.
> 
> I hope this answers your questions.
> 
> Brandon
> On May 14, 2014, at 11:53 AM, Kurt <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Brandon,
>> Icy much to admire and your perspective. However, from my study of 
>> eastern
> religions, not too shallow to be cursory but certainly not incredibly 
> deep saying you are influenced by "eastern religion"is just about as 
> useful for defining your specific beliefs as saying you are a 
> "Christian."I know you have mentioned specific branches of thought 
> that have inspired you but I'm curious which streams of 
> Hinduism/Buddhism you identify with most. Also, when you speak of 
> "Karma"are you referring to the Jain concept of karmic matter on your 
> soul or the more traditional view that it is simply a force of nature? 
> Also, what sort of empirical evidence do you have to justify your belief
in reincarnation? Again, I'm not trying to offend, I'm just curious.
>> Best,
>> Kirt ,
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On May 14, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Poppa Bear,
>>> 
>>> There are several answers to this. Obviously, truth is reality. What 
>>> is,
> is truth. The question is, what really is?
>>> 
>>> For the purposes of ending suffering, which is why I think we are 
>>> here,
> that doesn't much matter. What matters is that we don't argue with truth.
> Arguing with truth is the root of all suffering.
>>> 
>>> Let me give an example. Let's say you apply for a job, but you 
>>> aren't
> accepted. If your reaction is anger and depression, or any other 
> negative emotion, you are suffering. Why? Because truth is that you 
> did not get the job, but you are trying to argue with reality. You are 
> trying to say, "I should have gotten that job." But you didn't; there is
no should about it.
> When you come to accept that you should not have gotten it, simply 
> because you didn't, you will no longer suffer, and can go on to apply 
> to other jobs and either get accepted, or not.
>>> 
>>> So truth in this sense is simply, that which is. When we argue with 
>>> that,
> we suffer. That which is will never change because we really want it 
> to. It will be what it will be.
>>> 
>>> If your interest is deeper than that, and you want to find your own
> spiritual identity, then we can identify Truth further, but not much. 
> My favorite sentence of the Tao Te Ching says:
>>> 
>>> "The tao that can be told
>>> is not the eternal Tao
>>> The name that can be named
>>> is not the eternal Name."
>>> 
>>> So, whatever you try to say of Truth, is simply false, because Truth 
>>> (and
> I am using a capital T here to point out its transcendent nature), is 
> beyond all words. Words are man-made, describing finite realities, but 
> Truth is infinite. In Taoism, it is simply called the Tao, also often 
> called the void, or nothingness, or darkness. In Hinduism, especially 
> in advaita vedanta, it is called tat, which literally translates to
"that."
>>> 
>>> Truth is what I call God, but in reality God is a pretty poor term 
>>> for
> it, because it is so abused in the west. People say, God is loving, 
> God is just, God hates these people or those, we must kill in the name of
God, etc.
> God is anthropomorphized- it (and I use it purposefully), is made into 
> a person, a He usually. By so doing, God is made exclusive. He is not 
> a she, and he only approves of certain things, but hates others.
>>> 
>>> But Tao, Tat, that which is, approves of all. It has no opinion, 
>>> because
> it knows of no good or evil. It is simply being, or non-being, 
> whichever. It does not matter. We are all part of that reality, our 
> souls are really all specs within that larger beingness. There is no 
> you or I or the other, but only Tat, Tao, Truth, filtering through our 
> apparent perceptions. To me, it appears as one thing because of my 
> totality of life experiences, while to you, it appears as another. To 
> you, from what you have said, it appears as non-being, in the way that 
> you do not know if God exists. But it also appears as how you see the
world, which I don't know you well enough to say.
> It might appear as love, or as hate, or as joy or despair. But all of 
> it, the light and the dark alike, are all Tat, Tao, God, Truth, 
> Reality. It is not better or worse that you are agnostic, nor that I 
> am non-dualist, nor that someone else is Christian. It is how Truth 
> manifests to that individual.
>>> 
>>> I hope this helps.
>>> 
>>> Brandon
>>>> On May 14, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Brandon, nice to have you on the list. I was wondering after 
>>>> reading your post, how do you define truth?
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf 
>>>> Of Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 5:45 AM
>>>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>> Subject: [Faith-talk] Eastern Religions
>>>> 
>>>> Hello,
>>>> 
>>>> I've been reading with interest the various thoughts posted here. 
>>>> However, my own philosophy is in line with eastern thinking, such 
>>>> as Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism. I don't identify with any one 
>>>> religion, because I believe that a religion is just a series of 
>>>> labels that in the process of self realization, we have to one day 
>>>> surpass anyway. But I do read the writings of some of the masters. 
>>>> I myself believe in reincarnation and karma, which are staples of 
>>>> eastern religions, as well as non-duality, which is the believe 
>>>> that all things are one substance- that there is neither good nor 
>>>> evil, right nor wrong, being nor non-being, but the Truth includes 
>>>> and
> surpasses all of these man-made polarities.
>>>> 
>>>> Anyway, I just want to see if there is anyone here who has similar 
>>>> beliefs, or if there might be an interest in discussion of this 
>>>> sort of
> philosophy.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Brandon
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>>> 
>>> 
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