[Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
Poppa Bear via Faith-talk
faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Sat May 17 04:30:03 UTC 2014
Brandon, do you believe in justice and injustice? Also, you reference parts
of the Bible that you feel assist your beliefs, and that seems like picking
and choosing what you want and leaving other key teachings. This is how
people have miss used the Bible to justify many atrocities and gain
positions of power to manipulate the people around them. There is a lot of
things in your post that I would like to address, but I need to understand
how you are defining, or redefining certain words that have well established
meanings. -----Original Message-----
From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon
Olivares via Faith-talk
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 4:09 PM
To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
Poppa Bear,
Forgiveness is only for those of us in this temporal illusory world who
believe that some injustice has been committed against us. When we believe
we need to forgive someone else, it is ourselves we need to forgive.
God needs to forgive no one, because His/Her/Its perfect nature does not
allow sin to even exist as a concept. Also there is no one who is separate
from God/Reality, therefore there is no one who can sin.
When I believe someone has done something against me and the thought arises
that they shouldn't have done that, that it was wrong of them to do that, I
turn within and look at myself. Why did I project that? What is the
stressful thought causing me to suffer? Is the thought really true? (Hint:
it never is) Further, there is no "other" to hurt "me." It is all God's
divine dance with Him/Her/Itself. It is quite beautiful, and it causes one
to fall in love with God, with Reality, with oneself. This indeed is what I
believe Jesus meant when he said we must love God with all our heart, all
our mind and all our soul, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. These two
actions are synonymous. They cannot be executed separately from one another.
One realizes, my neighbor is God, and I am God, so of course I love my
neighbor as myself, and love God with all I have. I'd be stupid not to.
So unless God can forgive Him/Her/Itself, no one needs nor ever has needed
forgiveness. There are certain "people" (read: aspects of God) who are very
confused, but confusion is not sin. Confusion is merely the will to continue
to suffer in hell needlessly.
Brandon
On May 16, 2014, at 7:53 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Brandon, I would start off by asking you this , what is your
> definition of forgiveness and do you feel that you need forgiveness
> and if so, from whom?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 2:01 PM
> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>
> Poppa Bear,
>
> I completely understand and agree with what you are saying. But I hope
> you will allow me the chance to expound on this for a moment, as this
> actually supports the point I've been trying to make.
>
> Like you, I believe ultimate Truth is not something that can be
> intellectually known. I believe it can only be grasped once the mind
> lets go and the true nature of things can reveal itself to the soul.
>
> But here's the thing. Feelings are subjective. Let me quote something
> you said in your previous message:
>
>> for all of us, it is in His magnificent will and tender mercies that
>> a person will come before the Savior and long for his gift of real
>> life and forgiveness.
>
>
> What if I tell you that I already have "real life and forgiveness"? I
> have great joy in my heart every day, and feel that every day of life is a
gift.
> I feel the presence of Truth in my heart as strongly as I feel my
> hands typing this message. And in fact that this all has increased and
> bloomed within me since abandoning Christianity.
>
> Now I say that to you, and what will you say as a Christian to me, a
> non-Christian? Will you say that's not possible? Perhaps you will say
> that only true joy can come through Christ, so I must be imagining it?
>
> But here's the thing: you can't say any of that. Feelings are
> subjective,and the best authority on what I am feeling is me. Just
> like you can tell me the joy you have as a Christian, and all I can
> say is good for you. I can't deny that, nor would I want to. You have
> found something that puts true joy in your life and brings you closer
> to God. But see, so have I, and there is nothing in this universe that
> would enable you to deny me that, because you don't know my heart.
>
>> For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man
>> which is in him? (1 Corinthians 2:11)
>
>
> Therefore you can't tell me there is no hope without Christ, because I
> am here to tell you that I have great hope.
>
> And here's another thing. If the Truth, as Christians proclaim it, is
> based on a feeling, I submit that this isn't nearly enough upon which
> to send a person to hell. Feelings, as already said, are subjective.
> So if your feelings lead you to Christianity but mine lead me to
> eastern religion, who can be the judge? It would be like someone being
> punished because they had the wrong favorite color. It's subjective.
>
> And that's all we're left with if you admit that it cannot be proven
> intellectually, which I'd have to agree with. I believe what I believe
> because it is what I have experienced, and you believe what you
> believe because it is what you have experienced. Yet what makes your
> experience more "true" than mine?
>
> Brandon
> On May 16, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Brandon, I am not sure of what you qualify as true, but not to sound
>> too Spiritual, do you believe that some truths are felt more than
>> proven? There are many ways truth filters into our understanding,
>> sometimes they are obvious, other times they may come through our
>> trust in another person and what they hold to be truth, and sometimes
>> the truth is a manifestation that takes place over time because all
>> of the truth can't be understood at once because of limitations in
>> life experience or our finite understanding. I will throw a couple
>> things out to chew on. My younger children often think that I simply
>> don't love them because of an isolated incident and in their minds
>> and emotions they feel that is an absolute, but as they grow up,
>> experience life and become parents they will start to understand that
>> I actually did love them their whole lives and that their childhood
>> perceptions were extremely limited and they couldn't really see the
>> truth of the matter. Another example, when a person has been blind
>> their whole life, how do you go about proving that the sun is real to
>> them? They can only feel a heat, the same kind of heat that they may
>> feel under a bulb, or near a heater or fire, they can't touch the
>> sun, see it or even conceptualize the distance from the sun to our
planet.
>> It is never the less a reality and a truth that there is a large
>> bright ball of burning gasses providing light and heat to our planet
>> and it hangs in the sky every single day. At some point that truth is
>> taken into the understanding of the blind person as a factual truth
>> because of many experiences and relationships with trust worthy
>> people who can assure the blind person that there is indeed a sun in the
sky.
>> At that point, the blind person could start to even pursue large
>> amounts of information about the sun and sift through the years of
>> facts and fallacies about it, and still have never seen the sun, but
>> only felt it when it is there, or its absence when it is not.
>> Sometimes that is what our journey through the Bible is like, it is a
>> constant revelation that moves from points of confusion to a twilight
>> of dim shadows to a burning sunlight illuminating our entire
> understandings. Sometimes it is bit by bit and other times it is large
> fields of rich treasures that become clear to our understanding.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 8:05 AM
>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>
>> Andrew,
>>
>> I think if you wish to prove the Bible's truthfulness, it would be
>> better to present the case here, rather than referring us to a book.
>> If you'd rather not, that's OK, too. But I know for myself that I
>> don't plan on picking up a book about someone's conversion to a
>> religion about which I've already done plenty of searching and come
>> to my own conclusions. But I am open to hearing why *you* believe it
>> is true, and we can continue our discussion from that point, or not,
> depending on your preference.
>>
>> Brandon
>> On May 16, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Andrew via Faith-talk
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi not sure if you know who lee stroble is he was a reporter long
>>> time or go or is or was a pastor he used to be an athioust but
>>> anyway you could read his books if you wish there is one called case
>>> for christ case for easter and few others. he did a deep search and
>>> became a christian as result. i assume you are totally blind you
>>> might be able to get them in an excessible format.
>>> On 5/16/14, justin williams via Faith-talk <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>>>> And please do nnot try to prove the bible with the bible; that does
>>>> not work, unless you have faith.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>> Of Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:53 AM
>>>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully, I do not think it is possible to prove the Bible is true.
>>>> It's
>>>> really not even possible to prove that God exists. That is why
>>>> there is something called faith. :) On May 16, 2014, at 10:22 AM,
>>>> Andrew <andrewjedg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> reason i flew off like i did was because the way you put it seemed
>>>>> like you were targeting all christians even if you did not use the
>>>>> word all but that is what it seemed anyway. the bible is more than
>>>>> just a book. i could prove that it is more than just a book yes
>>>>> men wrote the bible but god gave them the words on which to say
>>>>> and scripture was god breathed.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/16/14, Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Andrew,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never said all Christians were bad. My wife Christine is
>>>>>> Christian and she's certainly not bad, and indeed very accepting
>>>>>> of my
>> path.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Truth is the way, yes precisely. But to me, not necessarily
>>>>>> Jesus, and for me the Bible does not prove that. It is just a book,
no more.
>>>>>> But I think it may be best to agree to disagree, unless you are
>>>>>> interested in continuing this. I have nothing to defend nor do I
>>>>>> wish to convert you nor anyone else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brandon
>>>>>> On May 16, 2014, at 10:14 AM, Andrew <andrewjedg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> being a christian is not a religion it is about having a
relationship
>>>>>>> with jesus i don't agree that it is a religion. and brandon not
> all
>>>>>>> christians are not bad. that said nobody is perfect but that does
>>>>>>> not mean all christians are bad. we all screw up and make mistakes
>>>>>>> but does not make all christians terrible to be around that may be
>>>>>>> your experience yes but still not all christians are bad. besides
>>>>>>> the bible says the truth is the way truth and the life and the
>>>>>>> bible proves that jesus really excisted and he is the only way
>>>>>>> truth and life. and i believe we are in the last days and that
>>>>>>> satan is doing a good job at deceiving many in the world today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/16/14, Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I would not call persecution a few people disagreeing with you
>>>>>>>> on a mailing list. :) On May 16, 2014, at 8:03 AM, Maureen
>>>>>>>> Pranghofer via Faith-talk <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And we are supposed to be questioned persecuted on the outside
>>>>>>>>> the Bible predicts it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: sheila via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 2:31 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: justin williams ; Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith
>>>>>>>>> and religion
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't believe this statement is fair. It's okay if others
>>>>>>>>> espouse there views but we as christians shouldn't do that no
>>>>>>>>> way is that correct. anyone can and should be able to explain
>>>>>>>>> beliefs including those of us that are Christians.
>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2014 3:23 PM, justin williams via Faith-talk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Are you folks arguing or something; It sounds like Brandon
>>>>>>>>>> tried to explain his belief system on a list which was
>>>>>>>>>> supposed to be one shared by all faiths. The Christians have
>>>>>>>>>> expressed their faith over and over, slapped each other on
>>>>>>>>>> the back and a mened ever sense I've been on this list.
>>>>>>>>>> Oh,
>>>>>>>>>> and you have also piled onto anyone else who is not saying
>>>>>>>>>> the exact same things you espouse.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Poppa Bear via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 5:10 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Brandon Olivares'; 'Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>>>>>>>>>> faith and religion'
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some of this logic cuts itself off at the feet and only goes
>>>>>>>>>> so
>> far.
>>>>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>>>> is a story about an Indian man who argued that we were all
>>>>>>>>>> nothing as he taught a body of seekers, his argument was
>>>>>>>>>> quite convincing. After the discussion when he went out and
>>>>>>>>>> walked across a field a bull started to charge him and he
>>>>>>>>>> started to run. One of the people at his talk yelled to him,
>>>>>>>>>> "You don't need to run, the bull is really not there and pain
>>>>>>>>>> is only in your mind." That is a belief than can go no
>>>>>>>>>> further than the mind in my opinion, because once we step
>>>>>>>>>> into the real world, we are faced with choices that we put
>>>>>>>>>> our minds to almost every
>> minute.
>>>>>>>>>> If you said, "I need to go to the bathroom", and I said, that
>>>>>>>>>> is simply a feeling that is not real, then you may think that
>>>>>>>>>> this philosophy has felled in one small point. But if it
>>>>>>>>>> works for you, then only you know how it fits your way of
>>>>>>>>>> thinking and if it is an honest approach to your daily
>>>>>>>>>> activity, or if you have to separate your beliefs from your real
life.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 12:10 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Linda Mentink; Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith
>>>>>>>>>> and religion
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I love to question. In my experience, nothing is true.
>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 2014, at 3:53 PM, Linda Mentink via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And God says in His Word, the Bible, that he resisteth the
>>>>>>>>>>> proud, but
>>>>>>>>>> gives grace to the humble. Of course, it's fine to question
>>>>>>>>>> many things, but not the Bible and your faith in God, if you
>>>>>>>>>> have such. If you don't, that's good reason to question your
>> beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At 02:37 PM 5/15/2014, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that questions can be good, but as a father of 7, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> do find that when my children are able to listen without
>>>>>>>>>>>> questioning everything I ask
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> them it brings a trust, an intimacy that is sometimes
>>>>>>>>>>>> tattered by the
>>>>>>>>>> twenty
>>>>>>>>>>>> questions. As for me, being married, I will often do
>>>>>>>>>>>> something for my
>>>>>>>>>> wife
>>>>>>>>>>>> simply because she asks me, I may think that it is silly,
>>>>>>>>>>>> may want to question her reasons, needs and all that, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> simply doing, or obeying
>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>> more to create the bond of love and trust that I think a
>>>>>>>>>>>> marriage is
>>>>>>>>>> built
>>>>>>>>>>>> on than being a analytical owl about everything. Also, we
>>>>>>>>>>>> will often
>>>>>>>>>> pride
>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves on asking questions about something like faith,
>>>>>>>>>>>> something that demands a real commitment from us, but we
>>>>>>>>>>>> will often swallow whole the garbage in our culture,
>>>>>>>>>>>> imitating much of it, desiring much of it, or prematurely
> condemning it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Kirt via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 11:26 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: sheila; Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and
>>>>>>>>>>>> religion
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> :-) I, for one, take pride in questioning everything. Even
>>>>>>>>>>>> my questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 2014, at 12:38 PM, sheila via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hi Linda I am in complete agreement and am not interested
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> questioning
>>>>>>>>>>>> my beliefs. They are based on the word of god.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2014 10:15 AM, Linda Mentink via Faith-talk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do not question my beliefs, not since Christ came to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> live in
>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bible is my Guide for life. I receive many things from it,
>>>>>>>>>>>> including comfort, wisdom, assurance that I will spend
>>>>>>>>>>>> eternity in heaven, and knowledge of the Triune God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those who say they have accepted Christ as their personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saviour, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> still continue to lie, cheat and steal, put too much
>>>>>>>>>>>> emphasis on what
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> did. They have not repented of these sins, and,
>>>>>>>>>>>> consequently, their conversion is not real.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> True Christians abhor sin, and, with God's help, do their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best to live
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> different life than they did before Christ came to live in
them.
>>>>>>>>>>>> When
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> do sin, which all do, they are sorry, and ask God's
>>>>>>>>>>>> forgiveness; and, if necessary, and they have sinned
>>>>>>>>>>>> against someone, they ask forgiveness of that person. Many
>>>>>>>>>>>> who think they are Christians will be surprised when
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> meet God, and are turned away from Him to spend eternity in
>>>>>>>>>>>> hell with
>>>>>>>>>> Satan
>>>>>>>>>>>> and his demons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christianity has been around since the beginning of creation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>> take God at His Word, and accept the free grace and
>>>>>>>>>>>> forgiveness He
>>>>>>>>>> offers,
>>>>>>>>>>>> will spend their life after earthly death in eternity in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Heaven with Him.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Eastern religions and cults are man-made, and were made up
>>>>>>>>>>>> not that long
>>>>>>>>>> ago
>>>>>>>>>>>> by people who rejected God, didn't know about Him, or
>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted to do things their own way--which, I guess, is the
>>>>>>>>>>>> same as rejecting
>>>> God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am sad for those who believe such nonsense, because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their end, no
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter what they say, will be condemnation to the lake of
>>>>>>>>>>>> fire, where no relief will be had.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to be harsh or offensive, but that's what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Bible says
>>>>>>>>>>>> concerning them, and I believe the Bible to be true. It is
>>>>>>>>>>>> the inspired
>>>>>>>>>> Word
>>>>>>>>>>>> of God. All it says will come to pass, if it hasn't already.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will not question my beliefs, but will continue to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stand on what I
>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>>> to be true in the Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> c
>>>>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>>>> az
>>>>>>>>>> ydude%40gma
>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>> -----
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Date:
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> lliams2%40g
>>>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> %40bresnan.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> s
>>>>>>>>> mu
>>>>>>>>> sic%40comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>> er
>>>>>>>>> 2188%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>> e
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>>>>>>>> g%
>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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