[Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Sat May 17 19:39:36 UTC 2014
Poppa Bear,
It seems you are ready to end the discussion, and I will certainly respect that if that is your wish. But I just wanted to respond to one or two of your points that regard me personally.
No, I have had no major traumatic experiences in my life. I’ve had a great life so far, and I have a great marriage now. I have always just been motivated to find the truth since I was 9-10 years old. I started to realize non-duality around the age of 13 and it’s been clarified and refined since then through a mix of meditation, personal insight and spiritual reading. Non-duality isn’t a philosophy that can be understood logically, which if I recall is the same thing you said about Christianity. It is something that needs to be seen personally. Once it is, it is clear as day and could never be denied. I assure you I’m not the only one who believes this. :) Do some research on advaita vedanta and Taoism and you will hear very similar ideas. It is just that eastern philosophy can sound very foreign to the western mind.
I don’t think I have changed the meaning of any terms, but words tend to get less meaningful as you go to the level of eternity.
Regarding my grandmother, I’m not sure what you mean. What seems so strange that after death, someone’s soul goes to a place of unconditional love? Isn’t this heaven to you? And this does not contradict with reincarnation: as I told Debby, a soul gets a period of rest after each lifetime, and then are reincarnated into a new body at some point. It’s been three years now, so my grandmother may have already made this transition. But it stumps me where you see an inconsistency here.
I hope this clarifies things a bit.
Brandon
On May 17, 2014, at 2:36 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry, but even though I would say that there are some glimmers of truth
> in what you're saying, it feels very ambiguous and the ways you seem to
> define and connect justice, injustice, suffering, joy and things like
> revenge cause me to think that perhaps you may have experienced a great deal
> of hurt, loss or something traumatic along life's path that has caused you
> to rearrange the meaning of these things to help keep you safe. I almost
> don't know where to go in a talk like this because of how terms and words
> for you can seem to be so interchangeable and some that allusive with a
> almost fantasy like use of perceptions. I mean, one minute you are talking
> about coming back reincarnated to continue in this cycle to be absorbed into
> something and then you are talking about where your grandma went and what
> she is experiencing now, it would seem that she could literally have only
> have been a ball of energy who was here and now she is gone and her identity
> would then seem like it had a little meaning in that kind of sinareo, I
> don't even know how to connect your thoughts. I don't want to say that in a
> demeaning way, and I hear people say things about Christianity that are
> similar, but never the less, I have enjoyed our talk and I welcome you to
> the list and perhaps we will just simply agree were we can and agree to
> disagree where we can't agree. It definitely feels like you have a positive
> attitude and do want peace in your life and have a desire to see less
> suffering in the world and I can agree with those things.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon
> Olivares via Faith-talk
> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 6:35 AM
> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>
> Poppa Bear,
>
> I understand where you are coming from. But I also think it is a limited
> perspective.
>
> I recognize the suffering in others, and because I can look at that without
> my own suffering, I am able to be immediately there for that person.
>
> But we have this misconception that because another person is suffering, I
> should suffer, too. As an example, my grandmother died three years ago,
> actually right before Christine and I got married. Everyone around me was
> crying and upset about the entire incident, but I was not. Why? She had been
> in horrible pain and suffering before her death. In my perspective, her
> death was a wonderful thing- a relief from pain. I knew that her spirit was
> in a place that it was now experiencing unconditional love and peace. Why
> should I be upset about that? So I was perfectly joyful that she had passed.
>
> If someone is suffering, I can be there for them, if circumstances allow.
> But why should it mean I should suffer myself? I don't believe in suffering,
> or if it comes up in me I know exactly where to look. I'm not saying I'm
> perfect at all this.
>
> Similarly if I see some atrocity on the news, I recognize that people are
> suffering and there is compassion there for them. But there isn't a need for
> me to suffer as well. They are doing plenty of that on their own.
>
> I'll give another example. I can't remember the specific details, but there
> was a man who had murdered this woman. He was in jail for years and years,
> and finally parole came up. He had perfect behavior- by all accounts he had
> learned his lesson. But this woman's family came to the parole hearing and
> continued to bring up how much pain and suffering he had caused.
>
> Now as I have said there are no mistakes, so obviously it occurred as it
> should have. But a part of me wondered whether that family wouldn't be so
> much happier if they could see this man as a human being who made a mistake
> in the past- yes a very large mistake- but now that he was remorseful for
> it, and their continuing to keep him locked up was doing nothing but
> satisfying their own need for revenge. He was not, by all accounts, any
> longer a danger to society. But that long-ago suffering got in the way of
> having any compassion for the perpetrator. Compassion goes much further than
> hatred and revenge.
>
> Saying that there is no injustice does not take away from the value of
> anyone's life. It simply recognizes that there is no need to suffer. If I
> were to speak to the family of such a victim, I would attempt to lead them
> through the anger to a place of peace, which everyone deserves. Hanging on
> to anger only poisons us. Whatever "crime" actually happened is irrelevant.
> Then I would have compassion as well on the person who perpetrated the
> crime, because obviously they are suffering if they would be able to harm
> another like that. They deserve compassion just as much as the victim /
> family. The point is not to punish, because what will that really do in the
> end? The point is to bring all to the realization that suffering can stop
> here and now. That joy is our natural state, and anger/guilt/shame/hatred
> are perversions of our natural state, causing great stress on our being.
>
> You brought up the example of if my wife cheated on me. You see, all I can
> control is myself. I can control how I treat my wife, and honestly that is
> more than enough. I can't tell her what she should do. If she chose to
> cheat, then I would ask her whether she preferred to stay with me, or with
> this other individual. If she persisted, I'd recognize that she was telling
> me by her actions that she was done with this relationship, and I'd go. But
> why should the relationship last a second longer than it is supposed to? If
> both parties no longer agree that the relationship should continue, then why
> should it? Who am I to decide it should last a lifetime? On my end, I know I
> will be here for the rest of my life. If she chose to shorten the
> relationship, then that has nothing to do with me. Getting angry about it
> will accomplish nothing. It'll only justify her decision to cheat, because
> obviously I'm crazy and don't really care for her if I am angry. Anger never
> accomplished anything but perpetuating suffering.
>
> People will do what they do. If we create expectations of them, they will be
> broken. The only thing I can trust is that what will happen, will happen. If
> I try to argue with it, I'm just causing suffering for myself. I can only
> control what I do in this world. I can't control anyone else, because they
> are on their own journey.
>
> But what I have found is that when I let go and let the natural flow of life
> happen, which by the way will happen whether I let go or not, I find that I
> am taken up in the flow. Things work out perfectly, and the world becomes
> much kinder. Everything becomes a great blessing.
>
> Brandon
> On May 17, 2014, at 4:49 AM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I understand where you are coming from Brandon, but in so many ways it
>> seems like you are neglecting the reality of the emotions that we
>> experience every day. I am not talking about an emotion that is wired
>> into us through cultural perception, or learned behaviors, but I am
>> talking about the deep rooted reality of what God placed in us that
>> sees, and recognizes injustice when it takes place. When a person
>> walks into a school and opens fire on little school children, when a
>> man takes women hostage for two decades of their life and strips them
>> of mental stability, happiness and a right to so many things that they
>> could have experienced, something inside all of us feels the injustice
>> of the act and the desire for justice. To say that we need to learn
>> that those incidents are not really an injustice takes away from the
>> value of the victims lives and their worth as individuals because you
>> can just go and relegate their victimization to some belief system
>> that seems to say that it was not reality that they suffered a great
>> injustice by an evil act that marred not only their lives, but the
>> lives of family, community and a nation. Without justice, anything can
>> be justified, any heinous act, any betrayal . For example, if your
>> wife went out tomorrow and committed adultery, without the reality of
>> both justice and forgiveness then it would be just fine. I don't see
>> how your belief can stand the test of day to day trials, tribulations
>> and the need to encounter suffering, life, guilt, injustice and
>> process them in such a way that accountability, mercy, love and
>> reality are held in an equal balance. But never the less, anything is
>> possible and maybe you can process those things in such a way that it
>> works for you and when you watch/listen to the nightly news, you don't
> flinch because you don't find injustice or the need for justice in anything
> that goes on in this world.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:42 PM
>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>
>> Poppa Bear,
>>
>> No, I don't believe in justice or injustice in an absolute sense. This
>> is so in two ways:
>>
>> 1. There is only God. If God is all that exists, against whom could
>> there be any injustice? It's like if I had a dream, and I became angry
>> at a character in my dream for something he did to me in the dream.
>> I'd be insane, obviously. It was all me- my own subconscious making up
>> stories. All those characters were really part of me. Therefore,no
> injustice ever occurred.
>> 2. All that occurs is perfect, and according to God's will. I know
>> this because God is synonymous with that which is. No matter what I
>> want or think should happen, reality will dictate. To argue with it,
>> as above, is insanity. For instance, I was walking somewhere tonight
>> and made a wrong crossing and temporarily got a bit lost. However, I
>> knew I was not lost. I was obviously exactly where I was supposed to
>> be at that moment, or else it wouldn't have happened. In truth it is
>> impossible for me to be lost, I might just not always know where I am.
>> On this occasion it allowed a nice person to be able to help me out.
>> Perhaps he was supposed to help me at that time for some reason. It
>> made my day, because it reaffirmed human kindness in the world.
>>
>> As another example, I mentioned earlier about Christine's aunt
>> choosing to not come to our wedding. For a while back then, I was
>> pretty resentful about it. It showed me that some people are
>> definitely not kind. But now I realize, she was not supposed to come.
>> Perhaps one day she will look back and regret missing her niece's
>> wedding, and that will act as a catalyst to be kinder and less
>> judgmental. Perhaps it was meant to show me that people can and will
>> disappoint me if I hold any expectations of them. Either way, it was
>> not God's will for her to be at that wedding, and I know this because
>> she was not. She is an aspect of God teaching me some lesson, and maybe
> teaching herself a lesson, too. Who knows. How can I judge it?
>>
>> So no, there is no justice or injustice. There is certainly the
>> appearance of it, and it can be what I call a useful lie for a
>> while.but in the end it is exactly that- a lie. A made-up story to
>> make us act nicely. Ego uses it to either congratulate itself, or
>> punish is itself or another with guilt and blame. You did xxx to me
>> and that means you are bad. I did xxx to you and I am ashamed of
>> myself. The cycle is all the same, and it all reinforces this pesky
>> little thought of separation, of I and you. When it is realized that I am
> you and you are I, then all stories of justice and injustice fall away.
>>
>> As for using stories from the Bible, I'm mostly doing that for your
>> sake, and to draw comparisons. Remember I don't believe the bible to be
> 100% true.
>> I believe it has some very deep undertones to it, probably ones that
>> Jesus meant to put there, but I believe it is very fallible. So I am
>> only drawing comparisons, not making a statement about the original
>> intent of the author of that passage.
>>
>> Brandon
>>
>> On May 17, 2014, at 12:30 AM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Brandon, do you believe in justice and injustice? Also, you reference
>>> parts of the Bible that you feel assist your beliefs, and that seems
>>> like picking and choosing what you want and leaving other key
>>> teachings. This is how people have miss used the Bible to justify
>>> many atrocities and gain positions of power to manipulate the people
>>> around them. There is a lot of things in your post that I would like
>>> to address, but I need to understand how you are defining, or
>>> redefining certain words that have well established meanings.
>>> -----Original
>>> Message-----
>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 4:09 PM
>>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>
>>> Poppa Bear,
>>>
>>> Forgiveness is only for those of us in this temporal illusory world
>>> who believe that some injustice has been committed against us. When
>>> we believe we need to forgive someone else, it is ourselves we need
>>> to
>> forgive.
>>>
>>> God needs to forgive no one, because His/Her/Its perfect nature does
>>> not allow sin to even exist as a concept. Also there is no one who is
>>> separate from God/Reality, therefore there is no one who can sin.
>>>
>>> When I believe someone has done something against me and the thought
>>> arises that they shouldn't have done that, that it was wrong of them
>>> to do that, I turn within and look at myself. Why did I project that?
>>> What is the stressful thought causing me to suffer? Is the thought
>>> really
>> true? (Hint:
>>> it never is) Further, there is no "other" to hurt "me." It is all
>>> God's divine dance with Him/Her/Itself. It is quite beautiful, and it
>>> causes one to fall in love with God, with Reality, with oneself. This
>>> indeed is what I believe Jesus meant when he said we must love God
>>> with all our heart, all our mind and all our soul, and to love our
>>> neighbor as ourselves. These two actions are synonymous. They cannot
>>> be
>> executed separately from one another.
>>> One realizes, my neighbor is God, and I am God, so of course I love
>>> my neighbor as myself, and love God with all I have. I'd be stupid not
> to.
>>>
>>> So unless God can forgive Him/Her/Itself, no one needs nor ever has
>>> needed forgiveness. There are certain "people" (read: aspects of God)
>>> who are very confused, but confusion is not sin. Confusion is merely
>>> the will to continue to suffer in hell needlessly.
>>>
>>> Brandon
>>> On May 16, 2014, at 7:53 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Brandon, I would start off by asking you this , what is your
>>>> definition of forgiveness and do you feel that you need forgiveness
>>>> and if so, from whom?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 2:01 PM
>>>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>
>>>> Poppa Bear,
>>>>
>>>> I completely understand and agree with what you are saying. But I
>>>> hope you will allow me the chance to expound on this for a moment,
>>>> as this actually supports the point I've been trying to make.
>>>>
>>>> Like you, I believe ultimate Truth is not something that can be
>>>> intellectually known. I believe it can only be grasped once the mind
>>>> lets go and the true nature of things can reveal itself to the soul.
>>>>
>>>> But here's the thing. Feelings are subjective. Let me quote
>>>> something you said in your previous message:
>>>>
>>>>> for all of us, it is in His magnificent will and tender mercies
>>>>> that a person will come before the Savior and long for his gift of
>>>>> real life and forgiveness.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What if I tell you that I already have "real life and forgiveness"?
>>>> I have great joy in my heart every day, and feel that every day of
>>>> life is a
>>> gift.
>>>> I feel the presence of Truth in my heart as strongly as I feel my
>>>> hands typing this message. And in fact that this all has increased
>>>> and bloomed within me since abandoning Christianity.
>>>>
>>>> Now I say that to you, and what will you say as a Christian to me, a
>>>> non-Christian? Will you say that's not possible? Perhaps you will
>>>> say that only true joy can come through Christ, so I must be imagining
> it?
>>>>
>>>> But here's the thing: you can't say any of that. Feelings are
>>>> subjective,and the best authority on what I am feeling is me. Just
>>>> like you can tell me the joy you have as a Christian, and all I can
>>>> say is good for you. I can't deny that, nor would I want to. You
>>>> have found something that puts true joy in your life and brings you
>>>> closer to God. But see, so have I, and there is nothing in this
>>>> universe that would enable you to deny me that, because you don't know
> my heart.
>>>>
>>>>> For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man
>>>>> which is in him? (1 Corinthians 2:11)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Therefore you can't tell me there is no hope without Christ, because
>>>> I am here to tell you that I have great hope.
>>>>
>>>> And here's another thing. If the Truth, as Christians proclaim it,
>>>> is based on a feeling, I submit that this isn't nearly enough upon
>>>> which to send a person to hell. Feelings, as already said, are
> subjective.
>>>> So if your feelings lead you to Christianity but mine lead me to
>>>> eastern religion, who can be the judge? It would be like someone
>>>> being punished because they had the wrong favorite color. It's
>> subjective.
>>>>
>>>> And that's all we're left with if you admit that it cannot be proven
>>>> intellectually, which I'd have to agree with. I believe what I
>>>> believe because it is what I have experienced, and you believe what
>>>> you believe because it is what you have experienced. Yet what makes
>>>> your experience more "true" than mine?
>>>>
>>>> Brandon
>>>> On May 16, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brandon, I am not sure of what you qualify as true, but not to
>>>>> sound too Spiritual, do you believe that some truths are felt more
>>>>> than proven? There are many ways truth filters into our
>>>>> understanding, sometimes they are obvious, other times they may
>>>>> come through our trust in another person and what they hold to be
>>>>> truth, and sometimes the truth is a manifestation that takes place
>>>>> over time because all of the truth can't be understood at once
>>>>> because of limitations in life experience or our finite
>>>>> understanding. I will throw a couple things out to chew on. My
>>>>> younger children often think that I simply don't love them because
>>>>> of an isolated incident and in their minds and emotions they feel
>>>>> that is an absolute, but as they grow up, experience life and
>>>>> become parents they will start to understand that I actually did
>>>>> love them their whole lives and that their childhood perceptions
>>>>> were extremely limited and they couldn't really see the truth of
>>>>> the matter. Another example, when a person has been blind their
>>>>> whole life, how do you go about proving that the sun is real to
>>>>> them? They can only feel a heat, the same kind of heat that they
>>>>> may feel under a bulb, or near a heater or fire, they can't touch
>>>>> the sun, see it or even conceptualize the distance from the sun to
>>>>> our
>>> planet.
>>>>> It is never the less a reality and a truth that there is a large
>>>>> bright ball of burning gasses providing light and heat to our
>>>>> planet and it hangs in the sky every single day. At some point that
>>>>> truth is taken into the understanding of the blind person as a
>>>>> factual truth because of many experiences and relationships with
>>>>> trust worthy people who can assure the blind person that there is
>>>>> indeed a sun in the
>>> sky.
>>>>> At that point, the blind person could start to even pursue large
>>>>> amounts of information about the sun and sift through the years of
>>>>> facts and fallacies about it, and still have never seen the sun,
>>>>> but only felt it when it is there, or its absence when it is not.
>>>>> Sometimes that is what our journey through the Bible is like, it is
>>>>> a constant revelation that moves from points of confusion to a
>>>>> twilight of dim shadows to a burning sunlight illuminating our
>>>>> entire
>>>> understandings. Sometimes it is bit by bit and other times it is
>>>> large fields of rich treasures that become clear to our understanding.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 8:05 AM
>>>>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think if you wish to prove the Bible's truthfulness, it would be
>>>>> better to present the case here, rather than referring us to a book.
>>>>> If you'd rather not, that's OK, too. But I know for myself that I
>>>>> don't plan on picking up a book about someone's conversion to a
>>>>> religion about which I've already done plenty of searching and come
>>>>> to my own conclusions. But I am open to hearing why *you* believe
>>>>> it is true, and we can continue our discussion from that point, or
>>>>> not,
>>>> depending on your preference.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brandon
>>>>> On May 16, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Andrew via Faith-talk
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi not sure if you know who lee stroble is he was a reporter
>>>>>> long time or go or is or was a pastor he used to be an athioust
>>>>>> but anyway you could read his books if you wish there is one
>>>>>> called case for christ case for easter and few others. he did a
>>>>>> deep search and became a christian as result. i assume you are
>>>>>> totally blind you might be able to get them in an excessible format.
>>>>>> On 5/16/14, justin williams via Faith-talk <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> And please do nnot try to prove the bible with the bible; that
>>>>>>> does not work, unless you have faith.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:53 AM
>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Respectfully, I do not think it is possible to prove the Bible is
>> true.
>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>> really not even possible to prove that God exists. That is why
>>>>>>> there is something called faith. :) On May 16, 2014, at 10:22 AM,
>>>>>>> Andrew <andrewjedg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> reason i flew off like i did was because the way you put it
>>>>>>>> seemed like you were targeting all christians even if you did
>>>>>>>> not use the word all but that is what it seemed anyway. the
>>>>>>>> bible is more than just a book. i could prove that it is more
>>>>>>>> than just a book yes men wrote the bible but god gave them the
>>>>>>>> words on which to say and scripture was god breathed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/16/14, Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Andrew,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I never said all Christians were bad. My wife Christine is
>>>>>>>>> Christian and she's certainly not bad, and indeed very
>>>>>>>>> accepting of my
>>>>> path.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Truth is the way, yes precisely. But to me, not necessarily
>>>>>>>>> Jesus, and for me the Bible does not prove that. It is just a
>>>>>>>>> book,
>>> no more.
>>>>>>>>> But I think it may be best to agree to disagree, unless you are
>>>>>>>>> interested in continuing this. I have nothing to defend nor do
>>>>>>>>> I wish to convert you nor anyone else.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brandon
>>>>>>>>> On May 16, 2014, at 10:14 AM, Andrew <andrewjedg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> being a christian is not a religion it is about having a
>>> relationship
>>>>>>>>>> with jesus i don't agree that it is a religion. and brandon not
>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>> christians are not bad. that said nobody is perfect but
>>>>>>>>>> that
>> does
>>>>>>>>>> not mean all christians are bad. we all screw up and make
>> mistakes
>>>>>>>>>> but does not make all christians terrible to be around that
>>>>>>>>>> may be your experience yes but still not all christians are bad.
>> besides
>>>>>>>>>> the bible says the truth is the way truth and the life and
>>>>>>>>>> the bible proves that jesus really excisted and he is the
>>>>>>>>>> only way truth and life. and i believe we are in the last
>>>>>>>>>> days and that satan is doing a good job at deceiving many in the
> world today.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/16/14, Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I would not call persecution a few people disagreeing with
>>>>>>>>>>> you on a mailing list. :) On May 16, 2014, at 8:03 AM,
>>>>>>>>>>> Maureen Pranghofer via Faith-talk <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And we are supposed to be questioned persecuted on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> outside the Bible predicts it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: sheila via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 2:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: justin williams ; Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith
>>>>>>>>>>>> and religion
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe this statement is fair. It's okay if others
>>>>>>>>>>>> espouse there views but we as christians shouldn't do that
>>>>>>>>>>>> no way is that correct. anyone can and should be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>> explain beliefs including those of us that are Christians.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2014 3:23 PM, justin williams via Faith-talk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you folks arguing or something; It sounds like Brandon
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tried to explain his belief system on a list which was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> supposed to be one shared by all faiths. The Christians
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have expressed their faith over and over, slapped each
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other on the back and a mened ever sense I've been on this
> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you have also piled onto anyone else who is not saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the exact same things you espouse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Poppa Bear via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 5:10 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Brandon Olivares'; 'Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> faith and religion'
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of this logic cuts itself off at the feet and only
>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes so
>>>>> far.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a story about an Indian man who argued that we were all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing as he taught a body of seekers, his argument was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite convincing. After the discussion when he went out and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> walked across a field a bull started to charge him and he
>>>>>>>>>>>>> started to run. One of the people at his talk yelled to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> him, "You don't need to run, the bull is really not there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and pain is only in your mind." That is a belief than can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> go no further than the mind in my opinion, because once we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> step into the real world, we are faced with choices that we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> put our minds to almost every
>>>>> minute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you said, "I need to go to the bathroom", and I said,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is simply a feeling that is not real, then you may
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think that this philosophy has felled in one small point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But if it works for you, then only you know how it fits
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your way of thinking and if it is an honest approach to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your daily activity, or if you have to separate your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs from your real
>>> life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 12:10 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Linda Mentink; Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and religion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I love to question. In my experience, nothing is true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 2014, at 3:53 PM, Linda Mentink via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And God says in His Word, the Bible, that he resisteth the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proud, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gives grace to the humble. Of course, it's fine to question
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many things, but not the Bible and your faith in God, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have such. If you don't, that's good reason to question
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>> beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At 02:37 PM 5/15/2014, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that questions can be good, but as a father of 7,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do find that when my children are able to listen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without questioning everything I ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them it brings a trust, an intimacy that is sometimes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tattered by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> twenty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions. As for me, being married, I will often do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something for my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wife
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply because she asks me, I may think that it is silly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may want to question her reasons, needs and all that, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply doing, or obeying
>>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more to create the bond of love and trust that I think a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> marriage is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> built
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on than being a analytical owl about everything. Also, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will often
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pride
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves on asking questions about something like faith,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that demands a real commitment from us, but we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will often swallow whole the garbage in our culture,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imitating much of it, desiring much of it, or prematurely
>>>> condemning it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Kirt via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 11:26 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: sheila; Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :-) I, for one, take pride in questioning everything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even my questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 2014, at 12:38 PM, sheila via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hi Linda I am in complete agreement and am not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> questioning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my beliefs. They are based on the word of god.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2014 10:15 AM, Linda Mentink via Faith-talk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do not question my beliefs, not since Christ came to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> live in
>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bible is my Guide for life. I receive many things from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, including comfort, wisdom, assurance that I will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spend eternity in heaven, and knowledge of the Triune God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those who say they have accepted Christ as their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal Saviour, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still continue to lie, cheat and steal, put too much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emphasis on what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did. They have not repented of these sins, and,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consequently, their conversion is not real.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> True Christians abhor sin, and, with God's help, do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their best to live
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different life than they did before Christ came to live
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do sin, which all do, they are sorry, and ask God's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forgiveness; and, if necessary, and they have sinned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> against someone, they ask forgiveness of that person.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many who think they are Christians will be surprised when
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meet God, and are turned away from Him to spend eternity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in hell with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Satan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and his demons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christianity has been around since the beginning of
>> creation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take God at His Word, and accept the free grace and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forgiveness He
>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will spend their life after earthly death in eternity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heaven with Him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eastern religions and cults are man-made, and were made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up not that long
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by people who rejected God, didn't know about Him, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted to do things their own way--which, I guess, is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same as rejecting
>>>>>>> God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am sad for those who believe such nonsense, because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their end, no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter what they say, will be condemnation to the lake of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fire, where no relief will be had.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to be harsh or offensive, but that's what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Bible says
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concerning them, and I believe the Bible to be true. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the inspired
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Word
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of God. All it says will come to pass, if it hasn't already.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will not question my beliefs, but will continue to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stand on what I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be true in the Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/sleigland%40bresnan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> c
>>>>>>>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>>>>>>> az
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ydude%40gma
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> v
>>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>>>>>>>> s
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4r
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eal%40gmail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/men
>>>>>>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>>>>>>>> k
>>>>>>>>>>>>> %4
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0frontierne
>>>>>>>>>>>>> t.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3950/7500 -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Release
>>> Date:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05/15/14
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> r2188%40gma
>>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> v
>>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>>>>>>>> s
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4r
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> wi
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lliams2%40g
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>>>>> l
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nd
>>>>>>>>>>>>> %40bresnan.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>>>>>>> s
>>>>>>>>>>>> mu
>>>>>>>>>>>> sic%40comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>> er
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2188%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>> w
>>>>>>>>>>> j
>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>>>>>> g%
>>>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> %
>>>>>>>>> 40
>>>>>>>>> gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> l
>>>>>>> l
>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> ms2%40g
>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 2
>>>>>> 1
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>>>>>> 8
>>>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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