[Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
Poppa Bear via Faith-talk
faith-talk at nfbnet.org
Sun May 18 02:43:21 UTC 2014
Good, glad to have you here and my feelings about our talk are mutual.
Take care
-----Original Message-----
From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brandon
Olivares via Faith-talk
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 5:12 PM
To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
Poppa Bear,
Thank you. I definitely appreciate that, and I respect you as well. It takes
one of some maturity to be able to end such a dialog civilly and without
needing someone to be right. :)
I am glad to be on this list. I will likely post some of my thoughts from
time to time as well. There seem to be a few people interested at least, and
I enjoy sharing.
Brandon
On May 17, 2014, at 7:19 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Brandon, I am glad that you are able to articulate your
> beliefs, and since your understanding of the path your on is so palpable
and
> your experiences have been good, then it is not my job to try and pry your
> hands loose from them. I appreciate the dialog and perhaps the largest
> barrier of our communication may be the limitations of emailing on a list.
> As far as ending this discussion, I don't know how much more ground we can
> cover when our differences are so vast. I believe in one way, you believe
in
> many ways if I understand right, those two paths are diametrically
opposed.
> It would be like saying that a red light and a green street light mean the
> same thing, so no matter how many words we exhaust I think that the
> differences are certain and in my case, it doesn't make me respect you any
> less and at this point I feel that my comments and observations have
leaned
> towards invalidating your beliefs and though I am not here to agree with
> everybody's beliefs, I don't want to take them from anybody either. God
> knows what's what and I want to sprinkle truth as he leads me and allow
his
> Spirit to work the rest.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Brandon
> Olivares via Faith-talk
> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 11:40 AM
> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>
> Poppa Bear,
>
> It seems you are ready to end the discussion, and I will certainly respect
> that if that is your wish. But I just wanted to respond to one or two of
> your points that regard me personally.
>
> No, I have had no major traumatic experiences in my life. I've had a great
> life so far, and I have a great marriage now. I have always just been
> motivated to find the truth since I was 9-10 years old. I started to
realize
> non-duality around the age of 13 and it's been clarified and refined since
> then through a mix of meditation, personal insight and spiritual reading.
> Non-duality isn't a philosophy that can be understood logically, which if
I
> recall is the same thing you said about Christianity. It is something that
> needs to be seen personally. Once it is, it is clear as day and could
never
> be denied. I assure you I'm not the only one who believes this. :) Do some
> research on advaita vedanta and Taoism and you will hear very similar
ideas.
> It is just that eastern philosophy can sound very foreign to the western
> mind.
>
> I don't think I have changed the meaning of any terms, but words tend to
get
> less meaningful as you go to the level of eternity.
>
> Regarding my grandmother, I'm not sure what you mean. What seems so
strange
> that after death, someone's soul goes to a place of unconditional love?
> Isn't this heaven to you? And this does not contradict with reincarnation:
> as I told Debby, a soul gets a period of rest after each lifetime, and
then
> are reincarnated into a new body at some point. It's been three years now,
> so my grandmother may have already made this transition. But it stumps me
> where you see an inconsistency here.
>
> I hope this clarifies things a bit.
>
> Brandon
> On May 17, 2014, at 2:36 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry, but even though I would say that there are some glimmers of
>> truth in what you're saying, it feels very ambiguous and the ways you
>> seem to define and connect justice, injustice, suffering, joy and
>> things like revenge cause me to think that perhaps you may have
>> experienced a great deal of hurt, loss or something traumatic along
>> life's path that has caused you to rearrange the meaning of these
>> things to help keep you safe. I almost don't know where to go in a
>> talk like this because of how terms and words for you can seem to be
>> so interchangeable and some that allusive with a almost fantasy like
>> use of perceptions. I mean, one minute you are talking about coming
>> back reincarnated to continue in this cycle to be absorbed into
>> something and then you are talking about where your grandma went and
>> what she is experiencing now, it would seem that she could literally
>> have only have been a ball of energy who was here and now she is gone
>> and her identity would then seem like it had a little meaning in that
>> kind of sinareo, I don't even know how to connect your thoughts. I
>> don't want to say that in a demeaning way, and I hear people say
>> things about Christianity that are similar, but never the less, I have
>> enjoyed our talk and I welcome you to the list and perhaps we will
>> just simply agree were we can and agree to disagree where we can't
>> agree. It definitely feels like you have a positive attitude and do want
> peace in your life and have a desire to see less suffering in the world
and
> I can agree with those things.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 6:35 AM
>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>
>> Poppa Bear,
>>
>> I understand where you are coming from. But I also think it is a
>> limited perspective.
>>
>> I recognize the suffering in others, and because I can look at that
>> without my own suffering, I am able to be immediately there for that
> person.
>>
>> But we have this misconception that because another person is
>> suffering, I should suffer, too. As an example, my grandmother died
>> three years ago, actually right before Christine and I got married.
>> Everyone around me was crying and upset about the entire incident, but
>> I was not. Why? She had been in horrible pain and suffering before her
>> death. In my perspective, her death was a wonderful thing- a relief
>> from pain. I knew that her spirit was in a place that it was now
>> experiencing unconditional love and peace. Why should I be upset about
> that? So I was perfectly joyful that she had passed.
>>
>> If someone is suffering, I can be there for them, if circumstances allow.
>> But why should it mean I should suffer myself? I don't believe in
>> suffering, or if it comes up in me I know exactly where to look. I'm
>> not saying I'm perfect at all this.
>>
>> Similarly if I see some atrocity on the news, I recognize that people
>> are suffering and there is compassion there for them. But there isn't
>> a need for me to suffer as well. They are doing plenty of that on their
> own.
>>
>> I'll give another example. I can't remember the specific details, but
>> there was a man who had murdered this woman. He was in jail for years
>> and years, and finally parole came up. He had perfect behavior- by all
>> accounts he had learned his lesson. But this woman's family came to
>> the parole hearing and continued to bring up how much pain and suffering
> he had caused.
>>
>> Now as I have said there are no mistakes, so obviously it occurred as
>> it should have. But a part of me wondered whether that family wouldn't
>> be so much happier if they could see this man as a human being who
>> made a mistake in the past- yes a very large mistake- but now that he
>> was remorseful for it, and their continuing to keep him locked up was
>> doing nothing but satisfying their own need for revenge. He was not,
>> by all accounts, any longer a danger to society. But that long-ago
>> suffering got in the way of having any compassion for the perpetrator.
>> Compassion goes much further than hatred and revenge.
>>
>> Saying that there is no injustice does not take away from the value of
>> anyone's life. It simply recognizes that there is no need to suffer.
>> If I were to speak to the family of such a victim, I would attempt to
>> lead them through the anger to a place of peace, which everyone
>> deserves. Hanging on to anger only poisons us. Whatever "crime" actually
> happened is irrelevant.
>> Then I would have compassion as well on the person who perpetrated the
>> crime, because obviously they are suffering if they would be able to
>> harm another like that. They deserve compassion just as much as the
>> victim / family. The point is not to punish, because what will that
>> really do in the end? The point is to bring all to the realization
>> that suffering can stop here and now. That joy is our natural state,
>> and anger/guilt/shame/hatred are perversions of our natural state,
causing
> great stress on our being.
>>
>> You brought up the example of if my wife cheated on me. You see, all I
>> can control is myself. I can control how I treat my wife, and honestly
>> that is more than enough. I can't tell her what she should do. If she
>> chose to cheat, then I would ask her whether she preferred to stay
>> with me, or with this other individual. If she persisted, I'd
>> recognize that she was telling me by her actions that she was done
>> with this relationship, and I'd go. But why should the relationship
>> last a second longer than it is supposed to? If both parties no longer
>> agree that the relationship should continue, then why should it? Who
>> am I to decide it should last a lifetime? On my end, I know I will be
>> here for the rest of my life. If she chose to shorten the
>> relationship, then that has nothing to do with me. Getting angry about
>> it will accomplish nothing. It'll only justify her decision to cheat,
>> because obviously I'm crazy and don't really care for her if I am angry.
> Anger never accomplished anything but perpetuating suffering.
>>
>> People will do what they do. If we create expectations of them, they
>> will be broken. The only thing I can trust is that what will happen,
>> will happen. If I try to argue with it, I'm just causing suffering for
>> myself. I can only control what I do in this world. I can't control
>> anyone else, because they are on their own journey.
>>
>> But what I have found is that when I let go and let the natural flow
>> of life happen, which by the way will happen whether I let go or not,
>> I find that I am taken up in the flow. Things work out perfectly, and
>> the world becomes much kinder. Everything becomes a great blessing.
>>
>> Brandon
>> On May 17, 2014, at 4:49 AM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I understand where you are coming from Brandon, but in so many ways
>>> it seems like you are neglecting the reality of the emotions that we
>>> experience every day. I am not talking about an emotion that is
>>> wired into us through cultural perception, or learned behaviors, but
>>> I am talking about the deep rooted reality of what God placed in us
>>> that sees, and recognizes injustice when it takes place. When a
>>> person walks into a school and opens fire on little school children,
>>> when a man takes women hostage for two decades of their life and
>>> strips them of mental stability, happiness and a right to so many
>>> things that they could have experienced, something inside all of us
>>> feels the injustice of the act and the desire for justice. To say
>>> that we need to learn that those incidents are not really an
>>> injustice takes away from the value of the victims lives and their
>>> worth as individuals because you can just go and relegate their
>>> victimization to some belief system that seems to say that it was not
>>> reality that they suffered a great injustice by an evil act that
>>> marred not only their lives, but the lives of family, community and a
>>> nation. Without justice, anything can be justified, any heinous act,
>>> any betrayal . For example, if your wife went out tomorrow and
>>> committed adultery, without the reality of both justice and
>>> forgiveness then it would be just fine. I don't see how your belief
>>> can stand the test of day to day trials, tribulations and the need to
>>> encounter suffering, life, guilt, injustice and process them in such
>>> a way that accountability, mercy, love and reality are held in an
>>> equal balance. But never the less, anything is possible and maybe you
>>> can process those things in such a way that it works for you and when
>>> you watch/listen to the nightly news, you don't
>> flinch because you don't find injustice or the need for justice in
>> anything that goes on in this world.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:42 PM
>>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>
>>> Poppa Bear,
>>>
>>> No, I don't believe in justice or injustice in an absolute sense.
>>> This is so in two ways:
>>>
>>> 1. There is only God. If God is all that exists, against whom could
>>> there be any injustice? It's like if I had a dream, and I became
>>> angry at a character in my dream for something he did to me in the
dream.
>>> I'd be insane, obviously. It was all me- my own subconscious making
>>> up stories. All those characters were really part of me. Therefore,no
>> injustice ever occurred.
>>> 2. All that occurs is perfect, and according to God's will. I know
>>> this because God is synonymous with that which is. No matter what I
>>> want or think should happen, reality will dictate. To argue with it,
>>> as above, is insanity. For instance, I was walking somewhere tonight
>>> and made a wrong crossing and temporarily got a bit lost. However, I
>>> knew I was not lost. I was obviously exactly where I was supposed to
>>> be at that moment, or else it wouldn't have happened. In truth it is
>>> impossible for me to be lost, I might just not always know where I am.
>>> On this occasion it allowed a nice person to be able to help me out.
>>> Perhaps he was supposed to help me at that time for some reason. It
>>> made my day, because it reaffirmed human kindness in the world.
>>>
>>> As another example, I mentioned earlier about Christine's aunt
>>> choosing to not come to our wedding. For a while back then, I was
>>> pretty resentful about it. It showed me that some people are
>>> definitely not kind. But now I realize, she was not supposed to come.
>>> Perhaps one day she will look back and regret missing her niece's
>>> wedding, and that will act as a catalyst to be kinder and less
>>> judgmental. Perhaps it was meant to show me that people can and will
>>> disappoint me if I hold any expectations of them. Either way, it was
>>> not God's will for her to be at that wedding, and I know this because
>>> she was not. She is an aspect of God teaching me some lesson, and
>>> maybe
>> teaching herself a lesson, too. Who knows. How can I judge it?
>>>
>>> So no, there is no justice or injustice. There is certainly the
>>> appearance of it, and it can be what I call a useful lie for a
>>> while.but in the end it is exactly that- a lie. A made-up story to
>>> make us act nicely. Ego uses it to either congratulate itself, or
>>> punish is itself or another with guilt and blame. You did xxx to me
>>> and that means you are bad. I did xxx to you and I am ashamed of
>>> myself. The cycle is all the same, and it all reinforces this pesky
>>> little thought of separation, of I and you. When it is realized that
>>> I am
>> you and you are I, then all stories of justice and injustice fall away.
>>>
>>> As for using stories from the Bible, I'm mostly doing that for your
>>> sake, and to draw comparisons. Remember I don't believe the bible to
>>> be
>> 100% true.
>>> I believe it has some very deep undertones to it, probably ones that
>>> Jesus meant to put there, but I believe it is very fallible. So I am
>>> only drawing comparisons, not making a statement about the original
>>> intent of the author of that passage.
>>>
>>> Brandon
>>>
>>> On May 17, 2014, at 12:30 AM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brandon, do you believe in justice and injustice? Also, you
>>>> reference parts of the Bible that you feel assist your beliefs, and
>>>> that seems like picking and choosing what you want and leaving other
>>>> key teachings. This is how people have miss used the Bible to
>>>> justify many atrocities and gain positions of power to manipulate
>>>> the people around them. There is a lot of things in your post that I
>>>> would like to address, but I need to understand how you are
>>>> defining, or redefining certain words that have well established
> meanings.
>>>> -----Original
>>>> Message-----
>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 4:09 PM
>>>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>
>>>> Poppa Bear,
>>>>
>>>> Forgiveness is only for those of us in this temporal illusory world
>>>> who believe that some injustice has been committed against us. When
>>>> we believe we need to forgive someone else, it is ourselves we need
>>>> to
>>> forgive.
>>>>
>>>> God needs to forgive no one, because His/Her/Its perfect nature does
>>>> not allow sin to even exist as a concept. Also there is no one who
>>>> is separate from God/Reality, therefore there is no one who can sin.
>>>>
>>>> When I believe someone has done something against me and the thought
>>>> arises that they shouldn't have done that, that it was wrong of them
>>>> to do that, I turn within and look at myself. Why did I project that?
>>>> What is the stressful thought causing me to suffer? Is the thought
>>>> really
>>> true? (Hint:
>>>> it never is) Further, there is no "other" to hurt "me." It is all
>>>> God's divine dance with Him/Her/Itself. It is quite beautiful, and
>>>> it causes one to fall in love with God, with Reality, with oneself.
>>>> This indeed is what I believe Jesus meant when he said we must love
>>>> God with all our heart, all our mind and all our soul, and to love
>>>> our neighbor as ourselves. These two actions are synonymous. They
>>>> cannot be
>>> executed separately from one another.
>>>> One realizes, my neighbor is God, and I am God, so of course I love
>>>> my neighbor as myself, and love God with all I have. I'd be stupid
>>>> not
>> to.
>>>>
>>>> So unless God can forgive Him/Her/Itself, no one needs nor ever has
>>>> needed forgiveness. There are certain "people" (read: aspects of
>>>> God) who are very confused, but confusion is not sin. Confusion is
>>>> merely the will to continue to suffer in hell needlessly.
>>>>
>>>> Brandon
>>>> On May 16, 2014, at 7:53 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Brandon, I would start off by asking you this , what is your
>>>>> definition of forgiveness and do you feel that you need forgiveness
>>>>> and if so, from whom?
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 2:01 PM
>>>>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>
>>>>> Poppa Bear,
>>>>>
>>>>> I completely understand and agree with what you are saying. But I
>>>>> hope you will allow me the chance to expound on this for a moment,
>>>>> as this actually supports the point I've been trying to make.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like you, I believe ultimate Truth is not something that can be
>>>>> intellectually known. I believe it can only be grasped once the
>>>>> mind lets go and the true nature of things can reveal itself to the
> soul.
>>>>>
>>>>> But here's the thing. Feelings are subjective. Let me quote
>>>>> something you said in your previous message:
>>>>>
>>>>>> for all of us, it is in His magnificent will and tender mercies
>>>>>> that a person will come before the Savior and long for his gift of
>>>>>> real life and forgiveness.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What if I tell you that I already have "real life and forgiveness"?
>>>>> I have great joy in my heart every day, and feel that every day of
>>>>> life is a
>>>> gift.
>>>>> I feel the presence of Truth in my heart as strongly as I feel my
>>>>> hands typing this message. And in fact that this all has increased
>>>>> and bloomed within me since abandoning Christianity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I say that to you, and what will you say as a Christian to me,
>>>>> a non-Christian? Will you say that's not possible? Perhaps you will
>>>>> say that only true joy can come through Christ, so I must be
>>>>> imagining
>> it?
>>>>>
>>>>> But here's the thing: you can't say any of that. Feelings are
>>>>> subjective,and the best authority on what I am feeling is me. Just
>>>>> like you can tell me the joy you have as a Christian, and all I can
>>>>> say is good for you. I can't deny that, nor would I want to. You
>>>>> have found something that puts true joy in your life and brings you
>>>>> closer to God. But see, so have I, and there is nothing in this
>>>>> universe that would enable you to deny me that, because you don't
>>>>> know
>> my heart.
>>>>>
>>>>>> For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the
>>>>>> man which is in him? (1 Corinthians 2:11)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Therefore you can't tell me there is no hope without Christ,
>>>>> because I am here to tell you that I have great hope.
>>>>>
>>>>> And here's another thing. If the Truth, as Christians proclaim it,
>>>>> is based on a feeling, I submit that this isn't nearly enough upon
>>>>> which to send a person to hell. Feelings, as already said, are
>> subjective.
>>>>> So if your feelings lead you to Christianity but mine lead me to
>>>>> eastern religion, who can be the judge? It would be like someone
>>>>> being punished because they had the wrong favorite color. It's
>>> subjective.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that's all we're left with if you admit that it cannot be
>>>>> proven intellectually, which I'd have to agree with. I believe what
>>>>> I believe because it is what I have experienced, and you believe
>>>>> what you believe because it is what you have experienced. Yet what
>>>>> makes your experience more "true" than mine?
>>>>>
>>>>> Brandon
>>>>> On May 16, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Brandon, I am not sure of what you qualify as true, but not to
>>>>>> sound too Spiritual, do you believe that some truths are felt more
>>>>>> than proven? There are many ways truth filters into our
>>>>>> understanding, sometimes they are obvious, other times they may
>>>>>> come through our trust in another person and what they hold to be
>>>>>> truth, and sometimes the truth is a manifestation that takes place
>>>>>> over time because all of the truth can't be understood at once
>>>>>> because of limitations in life experience or our finite
>>>>>> understanding. I will throw a couple things out to chew on. My
>>>>>> younger children often think that I simply don't love them because
>>>>>> of an isolated incident and in their minds and emotions they feel
>>>>>> that is an absolute, but as they grow up, experience life and
>>>>>> become parents they will start to understand that I actually did
>>>>>> love them their whole lives and that their childhood perceptions
>>>>>> were extremely limited and they couldn't really see the truth of
>>>>>> the matter. Another example, when a person has been blind their
>>>>>> whole life, how do you go about proving that the sun is real to
>>>>>> them? They can only feel a heat, the same kind of heat that they
>>>>>> may feel under a bulb, or near a heater or fire, they can't touch
>>>>>> the sun, see it or even conceptualize the distance from the sun to
>>>>>> our
>>>> planet.
>>>>>> It is never the less a reality and a truth that there is a large
>>>>>> bright ball of burning gasses providing light and heat to our
>>>>>> planet and it hangs in the sky every single day. At some point
>>>>>> that truth is taken into the understanding of the blind person as
>>>>>> a factual truth because of many experiences and relationships with
>>>>>> trust worthy people who can assure the blind person that there is
>>>>>> indeed a sun in the
>>>> sky.
>>>>>> At that point, the blind person could start to even pursue large
>>>>>> amounts of information about the sun and sift through the years of
>>>>>> facts and fallacies about it, and still have never seen the sun,
>>>>>> but only felt it when it is there, or its absence when it is not.
>>>>>> Sometimes that is what our journey through the Bible is like, it
>>>>>> is a constant revelation that moves from points of confusion to a
>>>>>> twilight of dim shadows to a burning sunlight illuminating our
>>>>>> entire
>>>>> understandings. Sometimes it is bit by bit and other times it is
>>>>> large fields of rich treasures that become clear to our understanding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>>> Of Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 8:05 AM
>>>>>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrew,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think if you wish to prove the Bible's truthfulness, it would be
>>>>>> better to present the case here, rather than referring us to a book.
>>>>>> If you'd rather not, that's OK, too. But I know for myself that I
>>>>>> don't plan on picking up a book about someone's conversion to a
>>>>>> religion about which I've already done plenty of searching and
>>>>>> come to my own conclusions. But I am open to hearing why *you*
>>>>>> believe it is true, and we can continue our discussion from that
>>>>>> point, or not,
>>>>> depending on your preference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brandon
>>>>>> On May 16, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Andrew via Faith-talk
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi not sure if you know who lee stroble is he was a reporter
>>>>>>> long time or go or is or was a pastor he used to be an athioust
>>>>>>> but anyway you could read his books if you wish there is one
>>>>>>> called case for christ case for easter and few others. he did a
>>>>>>> deep search and became a christian as result. i assume you are
>>>>>>> totally blind you might be able to get them in an excessible format.
>>>>>>> On 5/16/14, justin williams via Faith-talk
>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> And please do nnot try to prove the bible with the bible; that
>>>>>>>> does not work, unless you have faith.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:53 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Respectfully, I do not think it is possible to prove the Bible
>>>>>>>> is
>>> true.
>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>> really not even possible to prove that God exists. That is why
>>>>>>>> there is something called faith. :) On May 16, 2014, at 10:22
>>>>>>>> AM, Andrew <andrewjedg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> reason i flew off like i did was because the way you put it
>>>>>>>>> seemed like you were targeting all christians even if you did
>>>>>>>>> not use the word all but that is what it seemed anyway. the
>>>>>>>>> bible is more than just a book. i could prove that it is more
>>>>>>>>> than just a book yes men wrote the bible but god gave them the
>>>>>>>>> words on which to say and scripture was god breathed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/16/14, Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Andrew,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I never said all Christians were bad. My wife Christine is
>>>>>>>>>> Christian and she's certainly not bad, and indeed very
>>>>>>>>>> accepting of my
>>>>>> path.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Truth is the way, yes precisely. But to me, not necessarily
>>>>>>>>>> Jesus, and for me the Bible does not prove that. It is just a
>>>>>>>>>> book,
>>>> no more.
>>>>>>>>>> But I think it may be best to agree to disagree, unless you
>>>>>>>>>> are interested in continuing this. I have nothing to defend
>>>>>>>>>> nor do I wish to convert you nor anyone else.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brandon
>>>>>>>>>> On May 16, 2014, at 10:14 AM, Andrew <andrewjedg at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> being a christian is not a religion it is about having a
>>>> relationship
>>>>>>>>>>> with jesus i don't agree that it is a religion. and brandon
> not
>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>> christians are not bad. that said nobody is perfect but
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>> not mean all christians are bad. we all screw up and make
>>> mistakes
>>>>>>>>>>> but does not make all christians terrible to be around that
>>>>>>>>>>> may be your experience yes but still not all christians are
bad.
>>> besides
>>>>>>>>>>> the bible says the truth is the way truth and the life and
>>>>>>>>>>> the bible proves that jesus really excisted and he is the
>>>>>>>>>>> only way truth and life. and i believe we are in the last
>>>>>>>>>>> days and that satan is doing a good job at deceiving many in
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> world today.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/16/14, Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would not call persecution a few people disagreeing with
>>>>>>>>>>>> you on a mailing list. :) On May 16, 2014, at 8:03 AM,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maureen Pranghofer via Faith-talk <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And we are supposed to be questioned persecuted on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> outside the Bible predicts it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: sheila via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 2:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: justin williams ; Faith-talk,for the discussion of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> faith and religion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe this statement is fair. It's okay if others
>>>>>>>>>>>>> espouse there views but we as christians shouldn't do that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no way is that correct. anyone can and should be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain beliefs including those of us that are Christians.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2014 3:23 PM, justin williams via Faith-talk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you folks arguing or something; It sounds like Brandon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tried to explain his belief system on a list which was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supposed to be one shared by all faiths. The Christians
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have expressed their faith over and over, slapped each
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other on the back and a mened ever sense I've been on this
>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you have also piled onto anyone else who is not saying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the exact same things you espouse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Poppa Bear via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 5:10 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Brandon Olivares'; 'Faith-talk, for the discussion of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faith and religion'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of this logic cuts itself off at the feet and only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes so
>>>>>> far.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a story about an Indian man who argued that we were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all nothing as he taught a body of seekers, his argument
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was quite convincing. After the discussion when he went
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out and walked across a field a bull started to charge him
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and he started to run. One of the people at his talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yelled to him, "You don't need to run, the bull is really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not there and pain is only in your mind." That is a belief
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than can go no further than the mind in my opinion,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because once we step into the real world, we are faced
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with choices that we put our minds to almost every
>>>>>> minute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you said, "I need to go to the bathroom", and I said,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is simply a feeling that is not real, then you may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think that this philosophy has felled in one small point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But if it works for you, then only you know how it fits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your way of thinking and if it is an honest approach to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your daily activity, or if you have to separate your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs from your real
>>>> life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 12:10 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Linda Mentink; Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and religion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I love to question. In my experience, nothing is true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 2014, at 3:53 PM, Linda Mentink via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And God says in His Word, the Bible, that he resisteth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the proud, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gives grace to the humble. Of course, it's fine to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question many things, but not the Bible and your faith in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God, if you have such. If you don't, that's good reason to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question your
>>>>>> beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At 02:37 PM 5/15/2014, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that questions can be good, but as a father of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7, I do find that when my children are able to listen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without questioning everything I ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them it brings a trust, an intimacy that is sometimes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tattered by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twenty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions. As for me, being married, I will often do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something for my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wife
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply because she asks me, I may think that it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> silly, may want to question her reasons, needs and all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, but simply doing, or obeying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more to create the bond of love and trust that I think a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> marriage is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> built
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on than being a analytical owl about everything. Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we will often
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pride
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves on asking questions about something like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faith, something that demands a real commitment from us,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but we will often swallow whole the garbage in our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> culture, imitating much of it, desiring much of it, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prematurely
>>>>> condemning it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Kirt via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 11:26 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: sheila; Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Questioning Our Beliefs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :-) I, for one, take pride in questioning everything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even my questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 2014, at 12:38 PM, sheila via Faith-talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hi Linda I am in complete agreement and am not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questioning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my beliefs. They are based on the word of god.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/15/2014 10:15 AM, Linda Mentink via Faith-talk
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do not question my beliefs, not since Christ came to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> live in
>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bible is my Guide for life. I receive many things from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, including comfort, wisdom, assurance that I will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spend eternity in heaven, and knowledge of the Triune God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those who say they have accepted Christ as their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal Saviour, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still continue to lie, cheat and steal, put too much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emphasis on what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did. They have not repented of these sins, and,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consequently, their conversion is not real.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> True Christians abhor sin, and, with God's help, do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their best to live
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different life than they did before Christ came to live
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do sin, which all do, they are sorry, and ask God's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forgiveness; and, if necessary, and they have sinned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> against someone, they ask forgiveness of that person.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many who think they are Christians will be surprised
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meet God, and are turned away from Him to spend eternity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in hell with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Satan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and his demons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christianity has been around since the beginning of
>>> creation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take God at His Word, and accept the free grace and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forgiveness He
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will spend their life after earthly death in eternity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heaven with Him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eastern religions and cults are man-made, and were made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up not that long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by people who rejected God, didn't know about Him, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted to do things their own way--which, I guess, is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same as rejecting
>>>>>>>> God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am sad for those who believe such nonsense, because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their end, no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter what they say, will be condemnation to the lake
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of fire, where no relief will be had.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to be harsh or offensive, but that's what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Bible says
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concerning them, and I believe the Bible to be true. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the inspired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Word
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of God. All it says will come to pass, if it hasn't
already.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will not question my beliefs, but will continue to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stand on what I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be true in the Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> r g To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/sleigland%40bresnan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> c
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> az
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ydude%40gma
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> v
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> s
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4r
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eal%40gmail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> k
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %4
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0frontierne
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> t.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3950/7500 -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Release
>>>> Date:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 05/15/14
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> r2188%40gma
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> v
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> s
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4r
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eal%40gmail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/justin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lliams2%40g
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> l
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> %40bresnan.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/mau
>>>>>>>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>>>>>>>> s
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mu
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sic%40comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/pro
>>>>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>>> er
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2188%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>> w
>>>>>>>>>>>> j
>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>>>>>>> g%
>>>>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>> j
>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>> %
>>>>>>>>>> 40
>>>>>>>>>> gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>>> l
>>>>>>>> l
>>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> ms2%40g
>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>>> g
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>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>> 0
>>>>>>>> gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>> r
>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>> 8
>>>>>>> 8
>>>>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>> a
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>>>>>> %
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>> 0gmail
>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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