[Faith-talk] The Principle of Wu Wei

Sat Jan 10 15:33:42 UTC 2015

Poppa Bear,

I appreciate your point, and I see how you might come to that conclusion. But, I can only say that my own experience of life from an impersonal stance has been far from how you describe it.

First, yes, there is no purpose. The Hindus call it lila, which means the divine play. It is because it is, and that’s all we need to know.

For you, that might be depressing, but for me, I see it as freeing. You are free to live this life in the way you choose. You are free to make of it as much or as little as you like.

I don’t understand why people want life to have purpose. It is enough that we are here, in this present moment. It is enough that we exist, that we can be typing these messages to one another.

Indeed, there is no right or wrong, light or dark, up or down, etc. It is the mind that constructs these stories about needing these opposites. When you come to really face it, you see nothing but beauty. Everything is beautiful in the mere act of existing. I need nothing else from life but to be what it is. Why complicate things with these ideas of right/wrong, light/dark, good/evil and the rest?

Your mind wants this to have importance. It wants this to count for something. The fact of meaninglessness is often too much to handle. What is “meaning”? Why should we have more “meaning” than a squirt of water as you say, or as a star far out there in the galaxy? It all has its course, it’s cycle, it’s flow, its place in the universe. I don’t see it as degrading us as “humans”, but as dignifying all of creation equally. For if it all has the Divine spark at its center, in its essence, then it all is holy. The whole universe is a temple, and we can do nothing but worship. The difference is that I worship existence itself, the very fact of beingness. That is enough for me; that is the wonder of creation. You need a story behind it, a God, an all-powerful being to make it all right.

That “breath of life”, the “touch of magic” is in everything. We have no claim to it anymore than, say, an ant or a tree. The Native Americans thought that all objects, even inanimate ones, had spirits. A rock had a spirit. The Earth had a spirit. And I think in a sense they were right. All things have life, even if they appear to us to be dead or inanimate.

You spoke of commitment, loyalty, and why not just live however we like? Because, it is not an external morality that makes you live as you do. I think, however much you say otherwise, that you would live almost exactly the same. NO matter the laws, no matter the religious ordinances, there are still murderers. There are still cheaters. And there are still those who are loyal and committed. The laws have very little to do with it.

But then again, and here I’ll probably shock you again, but I really don’t believe in marriage. I believe in relationship, but I don’t believe that two people should suffer together for the sake of a “higher” ideal they agreed to however many decades ago.

I’ll give a good example. Christine’s parents were separated when she was 15, after 26 years of marriage. They just made the divorce official a few years ago. At a glance it looks tragic. But now her father is remarried to an excellent woman, with whom he is much happier than he was in his first marriage. We had the privilege of going to their wedding last year. Do I think he should have stayed with his first wife simply because a vow they had made 26 years before? No, I don’t. It was a painful process, but he came through a better person, married to someone who really supports him.

Honestly if I had my way, a marriage contract would last 5 years. After that time, the couple would be asked if they wanted to remain together, or separate with no further trouble. They’d have to ask themselves, “are our goals still aligned?” “Is this still the person I can see myself living with in the long term?” And so forth.

Anyway, that’s just my view. Then again, I see myself staying with my wife forever. Why? Not because of any moral ideal, or any law. Simply because I love her. I don’t need anything from her for that love to be present. We are about as different as two people can possibly be, but I still love her equally.

If you choose to love someone, love them. Love them not because of what they do or who they are, but because you know their true essence. Anything less than that is conditional love, and there’s really no room for that. Give them the freedom to be who they are, whether or not you agree or even like it. If we choose to have children, I want to give them the freedom to be who they want to be. I want to let them make their own decisions, with guidance from us if they want it. I want them to know we will love them no matter the decisions they make.

Again, I don’t think anything less than that is really love. Just my view on it.

And for the record, you didn’t come across as condescending in the least. I rather enjoy the discussion. :)

---
Peace,
Brandon

Awaken To Silence <http://www.awakentosilence.org/>: Awaken To The Silence That Has Always Been Within You

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> On Jan 10, 2015, at 4:10 AM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I feel like I understand the words you are saying, but at the same time I feel like that in this view of things that so many essential components to our individuality and our unique identities, both on a temporal physical level, and a spiritual eternal level have to be considered mute, elusion, or worse a kind of a nihilism, IE nothingness of sorts. As we Go through this life experiencing all of our emotions like, love, passion, guilt, greed, emptiness, hope, sacrifice and on and on, in this way of looking at life, these facets of our being seem to only be put into a kind of an ambiguous, faceless, impersonal feeling or existence that has no right or wrong, up or down, dark or light, heeling, justice, mercy, or tenderness. This only addresses to a certain degree the end of our existence let alone the purpose of this existence. So in this belief system it seems like that we are no different than a squirt of water from a water gun that splashes out onto  the ground and is then absorbed back into the atmosphere to repeat some cycle that is again, impersonal, and merely based on a law without the touch of humanity, the touch of everything that gives the breath of life, that magical component that separates us from a robot or computer. 
> In some of these views, I think that the loop whole is the trick to bounce all around and pick and choose which ever part of a belief system we like and then pull it out of its context and campaign on it. If we believe in such a thing as ethics, this seems fraudulent in some way to me, it doesn’t seem genuine in the heart of the matter. There is in one since an absolute truth at the core of any belief system that I have ever studied, either outright or implied and that core absolute truth says in so many words, or sometimes not so many words, this is the way, no ifs ands or buts. Even if we argue with that, it still, is an either or system. Either you except the eastern way, or the western way and this can be broken down in to all of the micro aspects that differentiate the two, but I doubt that’s necessary. So when we go ahead and only pick out a little peace here and there we have in a way already violated the teaching and miss understood the whole whether we like it or not. If we throw the clause in there that says, something to the fact that none of it matters anyway, then I say, why even bother with the pursuit of noble truths, ancient principles to live by and treasures of empowering knowledge, shouldn’t the inevitable conclusion be that we should all just live like the beast of the field following all of our impulses and let everything else be dammed? pardon my expression. We want to strive to live a beautiful, harmonious life that is enlightened, peaceful and healing and then say, well in all actuality those things don’t mean anything anyway. Why not just follow all of our impulses for better or worse? We are mad at our spouse, then leave and start a new life, what is commitment, love, vows or any of those things if all of it doesn’t mean anything when it is all said and done.
> These are just some thoughts I’m spilling out, kind of rambling through this landscape attempting to grasp more than something that feels like a melting snow flake and see if it is more than an allusion. It feels hard to talk about these things sometimes because at the heart of it I don’t want it to be an argument, but when it is typed out it can come across totally different than just sitting at a table over a couple hot cups of coffee, so excuse me if I sound condescending or snide. I do appreciate your responses.
> From: Brandon A. Olivares [mailto:programmer2188 at gmail.com <mailto:programmer2188 at gmail.com>] 
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 8:30 PM
> To: Poppa Bear
> Cc: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] The Principle of Wu Wei
>  
> Thanks Poppa Bear. Yes you’re right, it’s from Plato.
>  
> Well, going deeper into this, it is necessary that all beliefs are false. Some beliefs are useful crutches until we can escape them and move on, but all of them are equally false. That’s why it doesn’t bother me if someone’s Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim, or Hindu, or whatever they may be. I know that whatever they believe, and equally whatever I might believe, is false.
>  
> That doesn’t only go for religious beliefs. The beliefs you construct about the world are also false. Say you have a belief that you must always work hard to get by in life. Or you believe you deserve the world and don’t have to work at all. Both of those are equally false.
>  
> Why so? The mind is on the level of duality. When you think a thought, it necessarily contains dualistic concepts. I said earlier there is no other; there is no separation. But every thought has built into it concepts of separation. It has the root concept of “I” as an individual person. It has the concept of things that can happen to “me”. It may have the concept of others.
>  
> Let’s take a random thought and analyze it:
>  
> “I have to go to work.”
>  
> This thought contains several dualistic concepts:
>  
> • It contains the “I”— the idea of a separate, personal self
> • It contains the concept of obligation, linking the subject (I) and object (work).
> • It contains the concept of work, the object of this sentence.
>  
> There’s not a single thought you can come up with that is not dualistic, full of at least one, and usually more, concepts.
>  
> Even if I say, “all is one”, these are dualistic concepts. “One” is as opposed to nothing, or to more than one.
>  
> What is a belief? A belief is just a thought, that is perpetually held onto. Once Truth enters into the level of belief, it is no longer Truth. It can’t be Truth, because it’s been broken down into concepts and ideas.
>  
> There comes a point in non-dual spiritual teaching where you can seriously say nothing else. It is why you hear the stories of a student asking a master about enlightenment, and the master is simply silent. To say anything is to say too much. There’s a great line in the Tao Te Ching, as such:
>  
>> “The tao that can be told
>> is not the eternal Tao
>> The name that can be named
>> is not the eternal Name.” (Tao Te Ching, 1)
> 
>  
> To say, “all is one” is to take Truth and twist it into a thing— a thing that is false. To have Truth, you must contrast falsehood. The mind cannot grasp a truth that has no opposite— that contains all apparent opposites within itself already.
>  
> So, the Buddhists have the idea of the finger pointing to the moon. They say, do not believe the teacher, the words of the teacher, because his words are simply the finger pointing to the moon— pointing to the Truth. The Truth cannot be spoken, but it can very, very indirectly be pointed to. It’s something where if you relax your mind just a little bit, you may catch a fleeting glimpse of it. But the moment you try to go after it, it eludes you. People spend years and years in meditation, or in monasteries, trying to glimpse this Truth. The trick is that the mere act of trying to glimpse it, holds it at arm’s length.
>  
> So are my words true? No, they aren’t true. They can’t be true. But they can point to something. I can’t “believe” in non-duality, though many people try. I can only see that which is, or not see it. But even the not seeing is perfection itself. One person isn’t greater because they see, and another lesser because they don’t. That’s dualistic. Truth sees itself, and that’s about all that can be said. In your language, if God knows Himself, what more is needed? The rest is just fluff, pomp and circumstance.
>  
> Yes, beliefs can allow one to escape from reality. But I’m not talking about beliefs here, as much as it may appear as such. If anyone were to believe in what I am saying, they’d be wrong in their belief. This is more an open invitation to see for oneself— to strip away the stories, beliefs, thoughts, delusions that the mind protects itself with, and see what’s left. I don’t speak of God, or of spirits, or of an afterlife, generally speaking, because none of that matters. What matters is what’s left when you remove the mind’s own delusions— the lies it tells itself, often unknowingly.
> 
> ---
> Peace,
> Brandon
> 
> Awaken To Silence <http://www.awakentosilence.org/>: Awaken To The Silence That Has Always Been Within You
> 
> Facebook: AwakenToSilence <https://www.facebook.com/awakentosilence>
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>  
>> On Jan 9, 2015, at 11:35 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com <mailto:heavens4real at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>  
>> Beautiful and well thought out response Brandon. I am familiar with the cave, I believe that it was Plato, and if not, then Aristotle. I am glad that you have put so much thought into seeking to harmonize your beliefs with the practical issues of life even if I disagree on certain points. Let me just throw this out there, when you gave me the example of a movie I thought about how when we often take time to watch a movie that we have to suspend reality and let so much of our reason go out the window in exchange to be simply entertained, or escape from life’s uncomfortable encounters. Do you think that this can happen with a belief system? Do we have to sometimes suspend reality in order to try and cope with life and all of its gritty pain, loss, joy and pressures? Are beliefs like flavors? Does each person just choose which one taste the best to them and call it the best flavor? On the other hand is it like mathematical truths that stand regardless of whether somebody wants to except, acknowledge or learn them?
>>  
>> From: Brandon A. Olivares [mailto:programmer2188 at gmail.com <mailto:programmer2188 at gmail.com>] 
>> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 7:17 PM
>> To: Poppa Bear
>> Cc: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] The Principle of Wu Wei
>>  
>> Poppa Bear,
>>  
>> It’s a good question. Yes, I would.
>>  
>> I’d like first to quote the words of a spiritual teacher, Rupert Spira,  on this subject:
>>  
>>> If everything is one and everything we do is an expression of this one Consciousness then the idea of ‘another living being’ does not arise. Therefore there are no others to do harm to. There is only Myself, Consciousness.
>>> To do harm to another human being, one must first divide the seamless totality of experience into two, thus creating a separate person here, ‘me,’ and a separate person there, ‘you.’”
>> 
>>  
>> Therefore in your question, there is a distinct difference between the person who traps the mice out of fear, and the person who traps the mice because that’s the thing that arises to do.
>>  
>> In the first case, you have fear and resistance to the idea of mice being in your house. You believe “mice shouldn’t be in my house,” and “my children could be harmed,” etc, and this causes anxiety.
>>  
>> In the second case, you do whatever comes up to do. It will probably be to set up the traps. Why? There is no why. As hard as it is to believe, there is a place where you simply flow with the present moment. When an event occurs, something else happens in response. You see mice, and go to get traps. But you have no fear about the mice, or anxiety regarding them. You do not see them as a separate entity from yourself. It is just another step in the dance of life. You don’t construct stories about them harming you or your children, or anything else that might cause you suffering. The stories are seen through as illusory— as constructs of the mind.
>>  
>> Similarly, I’m not going to feel guilty for trapping the mice. They aren’t some other entity I can harm, nor can they harm me in reality. They’re another expression of the Infinite, entering into “my” life in this form for some, or no, reason. When you truly see all things as equal, then life and death both have their own beauty. Love and hate both serve the whole in some way. Good and evil become one and the same.
>>  
>> Imagine this: there’s a movie, and in the movie, there is Poppa Bear and his family. And in the movie, mice invade the house, and Poppa Bear sets up traps. Afterwards, you ask the actor playing Poppa Bear whether he was anxious for his children. He responds, “Why should I be anxious? It was only a movie; just a script. All you observed was light playing upon a screen. The apparent images you thought you saw were no more than phantoms. There were never any mice, never any Poppa Bear and never anyone to harm.”
>>  
>> So it is with the world. There is one awareness, one consciousness if you will. And it is reflected upon the screen of the mind in a multitude of ways, as thoughts, as words, as actions, as apparent people in the world. And these reflections of consciousness come together to play out apparent events. It even forms an apparent God who apparently rules over this world, but that’s as much an illusion as the rest of the light show. When you can look at the whole thing and laugh, for no reason and every reason, then you’ve gotten it. But 99.99% of the apparent people in this apparent world take it seriously; they think the play is real. They are unwilling to accept that it is all a joke.
>>  
>> If you’ve read the Allegory of the Cave, you know something about this. All of humanity is watching shadows play upon a wall, thinking that is real life. Occasionally, one of them looks around, realizes they are chained up and looking at the wall. They take off the chains, get up, and walk into the light. They learn to see things as they really are. They come back, trying to convince the others of the same, but they just laugh. “No, this is real,” the others say.
>>  
>> That was the plight of the great spiritual teachers, like Buddha, Krishna, Jesus. They saw the truth, came back to try to communicate that to others, and only a very few were willing to listen. That’s always how it is.
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> Peace,
>> Brandon
>> 
>> Awaken To Silence <http://www.awakentosilence.org/>: Awaken To The Silence That Has Always Been Within You
>> 
>> Facebook: AwakenToSilence <https://www.facebook.com/awakentosilence>
>> Twitter: @awakentosilence <https://twitter.com/awakentosilence>
>> Tumblr: awakentosilence.tumblr.com <http://awakentosilence.tumblr.com/>
>>  
>>> On Jan 9, 2015, at 10:04 PM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real at gmail.com <mailto:heavens4real at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>  
>>> Brandon, this is a far out left question, but I figured that I would ask it
>>> because if we were sitting down on a couch shooting the bull, drinking
>>> beers, whiskey, wine or orange juice, I would ask a dozen silly little
>>> questions to get a good idea of how some of this stuff plays out in life. If
>>> you had mice in your home getting into your food, leaving feces where your
>>> children played and slept would you consider a need to put up mouse traps?
>>> I'm just curious. 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Faith-talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org <mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Brandon
>>> A. Olivares via Faith-talk
>>> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 5:26 PM
>>> To: Debby Phillips
>>> Cc: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] The Principle of Wu Wei
>>> 
>>> Debby,
>>> 
>>> Not necessarily only talking about teaching. And it depends on the type of
>>> teaching you mean. When it comes to spirituality, I do believe that nothing
>>> needs to be said. Many times I do say things for the sake of saying them,
>>> but I don't see it as teaching. In spirituality, there's simply nothing to
>>> be taught.
>>> 
>>> It is exactly doing nothing, but sometimes doing nothing looks like doing
>>> something. The difference is that "I" am not personally involved. The thing
>>> is just done, almost effortlessly.
>>> 
>>> As for right and wrong, it comes down to a difference in worldview. The
>>> Christian worldview is that there is a personal God, reigning over his
>>> created universe. He sets laws that we must follow, or else there are
>>> consequences. We are lower than this god, and owe everything to him.
>>> 
>>> In the eastern, Taoist/Hindu/Buddhist worldview, this is flipped on its head
>>> and inside out, if you will. There is no personal God above us, but the
>>> essence that we are is one with the Infinite, whatever each religion calls
>>> it (Brahman/Tao/etc). Not that we are *part* of this, but we *are* this and
>>> it is us. The appearance of individual people you see is simply "God"
>>> putting on many masks. The Tao/Brahman/God puts on the mask of a saint, and
>>> of a "sinner". It puts on the mask of a king, and a common person.
>>> Ironically, it puts on the mask of a Christian, and of a Hindu, and of a
>>> Pagan, and even of an Atheist. It loves and hates equally, because these are
>>> all part of the dualistic world in which Life is experienced, effortlessly
>>> and naturally.
>>> 
>>> So when you say, everyone has the sense of right and wrong, it simply
>>> doesn't make sense in this wider worldview. When all things are a happening
>>> of the Infinite, then all things are equal in the absolute sense.
>>> 
>>> Realizing this fact is the entire "point" of our sojourn in this world, if
>>> there is any point at all. It makes everything inherently acceptable,
>>> because everything is an expression of Life.
>>> 
>>> I hope this makes sense, and I'm happy to continue the discussion or answer
>>> any other questions.
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> Peace,
>>> Brandon
>>> 
>>> Awaken To Silence <http://www.awakentosilence.org/ <http://www.awakentosilence.org/>>: Awaken To The Silence
>>> That Has Always Been Within You
>>> 
>>> Facebook: AwakenToSilence <https://www.facebook.com/awakentosilence <https://www.facebook.com/awakentosilence>>
>>> Twitter: @awakentosilence <https://twitter.com/awakentosilence <https://twitter.com/awakentosilence>>
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jan 9, 2015, at 8:58 PM, Debby Phillips <semisweetdebby at gmail.com <mailto:semisweetdebby at gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hmm.  Not sure I understand this.  So if I'm a teacher, I teach by
>>> silence? I think I can see that to a point, but at some point it doesn't
>>> exactly strike me as doing anything.  I understand just Being in God's
>>> presence, not having to accomplish anything, just being there, sitting in
>>> silence.  Is this kind of what you're getting at?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To say there is no right or wrong is a little strange.  We are born with
>>> some innate sense of right and wrong.  There is no society that condones,
>>> for instance, the random killing of another person.  There is something
>>> innately repugnant about that act.     Blessings,    Debby and Neena
>>> 
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